• he/him

Hi! I'm a bay area expat that now lives in Saint Louis. I play tennis, D&D, and board games, and I work as a data scientist.

I was formerly @M_L_G on twitter, now I'm @ftl@wandering.shop on mastodon, savfan104 at dreamwidth, and my name on facebook.


prophetgoddess
@prophetgoddess

something that i think gets often overlooked when talking about how mastodon sucks is that the software itself is awful. people talk a lot about instance drama and shitty admins etc and that stuff is real but really, the software is just bad. it's a resource hog, it has a lot of missing or broken features, the source is unnecessarily complicated (because rails), etc. everyone hates the dude who maintains it, too, because he has made it so hard to contribute to the project that everyone who used to be an active contributor has fucked off rather than deal with his bullshit. in other words, it's exactly like every other open source project.

theoretically the benefit of the activitypub protocol is that one could write alternative software to interface with mastodon instances, and people have done this, but they all also suck. there's pleroma, which is fine software but many instances defederate all pleroma instances on sight because of a perception that only nazis and pedophiles use pleroma. there's misskey, which again is decent software but the main contributors are all japanese, which isn't a problem inherently obviously but the language barrier has led to some significant miscommunications. i've spoken to several people under the impression that misskey was abandoned despite the fact that no such abandonment had ever happened.

(not to mention the fact that the existence and possible superiority of alternative options makes the narrative around pitching activitypub to people substantially more complicated)

something i came to realize while working on the open source streaming platform that i made with my friends is that federation is just... not very useful. there's a lot of theoretical benefits, but the truth is... the internet is already decentralized! if cohost goes down in flames i can always move somewhere else. i don't need any kind of special protocol layer on top of the web in order to do that. there are a lot of mastodonites who i've seen concerned about what happens if "proprietary" social networks like cohost make bad choices that drive people away, or run out of money, etc, and the truth is that mastodon/activitypub... doesn't solve those issues. as long as you always have multiple ways of reaching your friends, your audience, etc, there's really... nothing to be afraid of.

i think the future has room for things like cohost, that are designed to be big tents that draw in a diverse crowd of people to meet each other and interact (which is what twitter has been, and still sort of is, at least for now), and for niche forums with a small group of weirdos, and for tiny group chats with a dozen or fewer people posting about their lives, organizing hangouts, sharing stuff they like.

a lot of people who are drawn to mastodon/activitypub are drawn to the idea of having a permanent solution to talking to your audience online. they want to build something that can last forever, that will survive any contingency, that will ensure all our relationships and our data are preserved into eternity. the truth however, is that's impossible. there's nothing bad about the cycle of impermanence. places get built, people show up and hang out and then they go away. i'm on cohost knowing full well it will someday die. one day the web itself will die.


ftl
@ftl

Mostly this just makes me a bit sad. Is being unusable a fundamental property of social networking?


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in reply to @prophetgoddess's post:

interoperability in the abstract is this albatross, an open ended unfulfillable meta-promise. interoperability in the concrete means specific promises to specific parties, and those i can get behind. when it comes down to it, mastodon can't seem to make to users one of the most important guarantees: that your posting history can move instances with you - something it is frequently given credit for, completely incorrectly. i get that it's technically difficult but the lack of it undercuts one of the core "freedoms" of federation. (and yeah, lots of people couldn't give less of a damn about their posting history, and everything is impermanent ultimately... but for the people who do care about it, it's real. and at this point, there are a sizable number of people who didn't even think about it, until the day their server suddenly went kaput, and all their data vanished. and most of them probably didn't want that to happen. anyways yeah i agree on all counts.)

as long as you always have multiple ways of reaching your friends, your audience, etc, there's really... nothing to be afraid of.

Not the crux of your post, but I wish being able to find everyone when a place we all congrgated at goes kaput was easier. I also have severe bandwidth problems multiplexing different places to chat. Old solution was I was only guaranteed to check Twitter and IRC. Unfortunately, thanks to Muskie, I have to change that.

something that i think gets often overlooked when talking about how mastodon sucks is that the software itself is awful.

this strikes me as... well, very subjective, to be honest. the project governance is bad, but i much, much prefer the UI of the two mastodon instances I'm on to Twitter, and of Tusky to the Twitter app or any alternative Twitter app I've used. also, if you don't like the UI of the webapp, you can use any one of a half-dozen alternative frontends, all quite good. and for all the shit we all talk about Mastodon as software - my self included, see my recent posts - it's much faster and less, well, bloated, frankly, than Cohost is right now.

well yeah, of course it's subjective. i don't know how to make a statement that isn't subjective. my goal when writing is absolutely never to present some kind of objective view from nowhere where i only state indisputable facts (if you find any of those, let me know)

anyway, the point of the post isn't anything about comparing the relative code qualities of mastodon and cohost, it's about the failure of open source/decentralized/federated (i am aware those things are not synonyms) software to deliver on its promises of freedom, stability, and eternity. it's a rebuttal to specific arguments i have seen, and a rejection of the focus on supposed cultural issues with mastodon ("drama") in favor of a focus on the inherent failures in its vision that cannot be fixed by rewriting or forking the software.

if i knew this many people were going to see it, i might have restructured it a bit to be more focused, but i didn't; i wrote it in like 10 minutes while i waited for my lunch to reheat in the toaster oven.

that's reasonable. to be clear, i don't mean "subjective" in the sense that it's arguable, based on experience, and so forth; of course it is. what i mean is that you present an absolute - Mastodon, as software, is bad - with no point of reference.

for me, mastodon and its culture has been more liberating, more stable, and less transient than other platforms. it has fulfilled the particular and precise promises of freedom that it gave to me. it's been a platform on which i've built genuine and lasting community, from a learning community around Rust to an in-person polycule, in a way that no other online platform allowed me to do. i also recognize that that's not the experience a lot of people have had, which is why i didn't bring it up .

but hearing you say, and more importantly seeing people share your post, that the software is strictly and objectively, without reference to any other benchmark bad, is extremely frustrating. sure, it's bad. is it worse than Twitter? than Tumblr? than Facebook? than Tildes? in some ways yes, in some ways no.

I like your point about the internet already being decentralized. There's an often unspoken assumption when people talk about decentralization that interoperability (aka standardization...) has to be part of it. But for that to be true (and not just kind of partially true), whatever 'thing' we're talking about (this also happens in "metaverse thinking"...) has to be predetermined. If the only part that's different about each instance of 'thing' is who manages it (and not what it is or can be) then, at least for me, the most valuable thing decentralization can do (that totally different things can exist independently) is already lost.

Standardization is fine when interoperability is what you're looking for (email, phones, the internet...), but as a non plus ultra of decentralization seems really misguided.

Also, DIOS sounds really cool, exactly my kind of decentralization.

from what I hear the ActivityPub spec is also not very clear and hard to implement, and different fediverse software interprets it in different ways so it's all around a good time