funbil

『𝐃𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐦 𝐂𝐡𝐚𝐬𝐞𝐫』

  • they/them

music composer, writer, game designer and freakshow forever



MOOMANiBE
@MOOMANiBE

While I generally have a rule against importing twitter discourse to cohost, this is a topic that is, I guess, pretty close to my heart - as an indie dev, as an artist. What does it actually mean to make shorter games with worse graphics? For the purposes of this discussion I'm going to leave aside things like 'marketing metrics' and 'gamer expectations' because those aren't my domain of expertise.

So first off, I think we all kind of get what the goal of this statement is, right? We're harkening back to older times, when games would take between 6 months and a year to develop. And we're pointing at many tiny indies on steam and itch, who make games like this all the time that are truly excellent. The idea is to hold these up as examples we should take inspiration from - both as a reversal of the unsustainable expense of making single games in the modern day - and as a repudiation of crunch culture.

I have... a few thoughts on this.

The first is maybe a bit controversial: I am not really sure crunch culture has changed much since the 90s. If you read interviews with japanese developers of the time, they constantly talk about being hospitalized for overwork - the games may have been getting done quicker, may have been simpler, but the expectation of things getting done at an unreasonably fast pace, and of major changes being made with no extension in schedule, does not seem much changed from today. I don't really think crunch is a scale problem, is I guess what I'm saying. I think it's a problem of production - of scheduling, of poor management, and perhaps, a sign of the degree to which, this many years later, an endless brain drain and the secretive nature of the industry has prevented institutional knowledge on how to schedule and build a game sustainably from propogating. I do not necessarily think smaller games will save midsize-and-up studios from crunch culture. Maybe labour organizing will. We can but hope.

My second thought applies mostly to small indies and is.. messy. And it's simply this: A lot of the pressure to make games bigger and more ambitious comes from indies themselves. there is no one more excited to make a game they're excited about than indie devs. A lot of the games you find ballooning to 4-5 year dev times in that space are not because of outside pressure, but because of an internal desire to create the amazing idea they have living in their head. It's exciting to designers, to make designs that feel like they come from new or unexamined spaces. As an artist, I want to make shit that I can show off and brag about to my friends. I suspect most gamedevs are like this. And it's an instinct that's gotten me in over my head before. The more everyone around you seems to be giving their all, the more you want to match their fervor.

This is dangerous, is the thing. But it's also.... what being an artist is about, to some extent. And I truly do think that gamedevs are all artists at heart, striving to bring a creative ideal into the world as they do. It's very easy, in this situation, to read "shorter games with worse graphics" and go "yeah! totally!" and then go back to scope creeping your own game endlessly because you're excited about it. "I wonder who that's for" is the most common affliction in games. And yet. And yet. These instincts lead so many games to cancellation, devs to burnout. When I think about the personal art pieces I've made that I gave up on and left behind, I wonder if I wouldn't be having the same problems I do in gamedev if my job relied on finishing them. (Though I'm simplifying, of course. I've also, as many times, been the person pushing back on scope creep. It's a complicated dance.)

My third thought is perhaps the most selfish, and the most insecure, and it's simple. Small indie is very, very programmer-centric. Generally speaking, the way small studios are formed is that a single programmer works in tech or AAA long enough to build a large nest egg, and then spends it on hiring people to make their dream game. I would say this borders on the most common situation for me in terms of the kind of teams I've been on. I think a world in which many of those people take to heart "shorter games with worse graphics" is a world with less room for people like me in it. Animators are a niche role on tiny productions. We rely on studio owners caring about the graphics juuust enough to want to splurge the extra for us instead of just hiring a single generalist artist. And I know, I know - that isn't the intent of the statement. We want better paid devs and that includes artists. But this is a power dynamic I can't ever be unaware of, and reading that statement makes me pine for an industry that respected other skills the way it does coding. Writers and dedicated game designers know what I'm talking about here.

And so... wrapping this all up, I'm not actually sure that what I want is shorter games with worse graphics. What I think I actually want is an industry where people can pursue their ideas and careers in a healthier manner. Whether that's education that facilitates a better, deeper knowledge of production principles across the board - scheduling early, knowing when to start cutting, working within your financial means - or just a world where dropping a project is less financially ruinious, either because of government grants (big shoutout to the Canada Media Fund for allowing so many indies to continue existing) or because of a world in which capitalism is just less shitty and we're all free from being beholden to the cruelty of the CEO class (I know, I know). I'm not sure I know of an easy solution to any of this. I certainly know steps I'd like to see - freeing games learning and talks from the likes of paywalling GDC for a start, more knowledge-sharing, more open-sourcing of game tools. And end to employee-hostile policies like not allowing portfolio usage of cancelled projects. Part of me wonders if unions could help facilitate this kind of thing? We so deeply lack social structures in this industry - just look at how poorly supported our credits accounting is, a site run by a tiny number of mostly non-dev volunteers. ...I guess that's all harder to get across than a simple, easily repeated statement like the one in the title of this post. Nuance is hard on social media. But... for topics like this, I think it's important.


dog
@dog

If you have any interest in getting your impressions of old game dev being fast and lean dispelled, this interview with ex-employees of Telenet is a must-read.

Reads okay in machine translation, if you don't read Japanese, but @gosokkyu summarized a bunch of the most interesting and salacious stuff on twitter:


gosokkyu
@gosokkyu

I should mention that I only went over a very small portion of this long interview, without really touching on the more candid comments about Telenet's managerial ethos and the circumstances behind their large library of mostly-shoddy games, but I hope to get to the entire thing sometime...

My new go-to example for obscene JP dev crunch is something that also became public a few months ago: AKIO, the legendary designer and pixel artist whose work defined the likes of R-TYPE and the classic Metal Slug trilogy, recently revealed that they retired from SNK in 2010 due to severe debilitating issues that stem from the production of the first Metal Slug, which saw his team clock in ~4 months of 16+-hour days, followed by ~8 months living at the office—unbeknownst to AKIO at the time, he'd broken his neck in a car accident but went right back to sleeping under his desk for god knows how long, and only managed to persevere as a full-timer for as long as he did by sneaking off to get painkiller injections every day for years and years, until they finally stopped working and he could barely move, much less work.


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in reply to @MOOMANiBE's post:

i am of the unfortunate opinion that unless the pressure of capital to always be "productive" (i.e. generating money, somehow) goes away, this sort of thing won't go away. as long as people have to make money to have basic needs met, we can't have that world. it fuckin sucks.

I mean, I do think that counteracting what you're describing is very literally the role of labour organizing going back to the 1800s when factory worker strikes won us the concept of the 8-hour workday or like, weekends

which doesn't fix things for smaller indies necessarily but I think it's worth keeping in mind how powerful it has been historically

the main problem there that i see is to be part of labor organizing, you have to be part of labor, which means you still have to be part of the system. labor still implies that you produce something, eventually, and the issue is that you need to be able to produce nothing. you need to have no obligations around it.

i think we more or less agree on things as it is.

Long-standing debate in revolutionary socialist circles: What is the role of organized labor, is it revolutionary, counter-revolutionary, a transitional tactic, can it be made revolutionary (anarcho-syndicalism), is that in itself counterproductive, etc. The same questions have been asked since the 19th century and don't seem likely to get resolved to anyone's satisfaction any time soon

Generally speaking they go into the memory hole, NDA'd forever. It really sucks, it's AWFUL for people who end up on troubled projects and can go 4-7 years with nothing on their portfolio to show

When the last Pokemon was coming out, the big thing was that the graphics are BAD because CRUNCH. Other times, the graphics are GOOD because CRUNCH. In both cases there seems to be a little bit of equating the working conditions you believe to be moral with the kind of games you want to see and it never feels right to me. Probably all kinds of production, even in an equitable set of working conditions, would carry benefits and drawbacks.
Anyway it's nice to see someone with actual experience saying these things that make sense to me.

on the subjects of the implication that shorter games/dev cycles require less crunch and the realities of working conditions in the '90s, i always remember the stories about mega man 7. despite being a short, unambitious sidescroller iterating on a well-established formula, it still got squeezed into a hellish three-month dev cycle that forced people to sleep under their desks. even if long dev cycles bring their own problems, it's always been a management issue

I want to say the GBA Ace Attorney games were similarly nightmarish in their scheduling... There's a reason they had to pull in Takumi's initial idea for a series finale to be 2-4 and they had to move the restaurant case to game 3

On AA2: "Development of the game began immediately when Takumi returned to work from his vacation: the producer, Atsushi Inaba, called him in to a meeting, and told Takumi that he wanted him to write the script for five episodes before the game went into full production, with a deadline of three and a half months. Takumi thought that this was "completely insane", as it had taken him an average of more than a month to write each of the four episodes for the first Ace Attorney; additionally, he felt that he did not have any "tricks" left to use for mysteries or any story threads to work off of. He wanted to protest, but still ended up having to do it. "

The tough thing about that Sonic meme is that I feel like a lot of people mean "I want a Horizon Zero Dawn that looks like a 360 game" and some people mean like "I want a metroidvania like Silksong but with rough placeholder graphics" which are two extremely different things.

Like some people mean a game like Hi-Fi Rush, some people mean ASCII art, it's all very confusing.

I mean it's funny because hi-fi rush has maybe the most lavish animation of any game I've ever played, full stop. I want a world in which you can draw in animators to work on a project like that and then treat them well, lmao

Yeah I agree! But I feel like a lot of (non-artist) people reposting that Sonic meme feel that Hi-Fi Rush or, say, a Nintendo game would qualify because they're judging it against the yard stick of "PS5 photorealism."

And yeah, as a fellow animator, I am praying for that world too haha.

"Generally speaking, the way small studios are formed is that a single programmer works in tech or AAA long enough to build a large nest egg, and then spends it on hiring people to make their dream game."

Right on the money. I say that as one of the people who got hired in exactly this kind of situation. They wanted better visuals, better level design, and better animations, and so they hired people for each of those tasks. Without their desire to improve the separate elements, that's three people who wouldn't have the steady gigs they do.

Sonic "shorter games".meme is a great way to get a vibe across, but without collective action the machine of industry will just keep grinding on.

can't really disagree with any of these points, but personally i've always interpreted the meme as "if the choice is between huge 4 year AAA crunched game devs and simpler 1 year AAA with well-treated game devs, then i would choose the latter," though i can see how having a simpler game won't guarantee well-treated devs

Really good points here.

"My second thought applies mostly to small indies and is.. messy. And it's simply this: A lot of the pressure to make games bigger and more ambitious comes from indies themselves."

I find this really intriguing as a solo dev who's not an industry professional. It's always seemed like there was some outside influence behind that pressure from my vantage point. Like, if getting a publisher or investor is as competitive as it sounds, I'd expect that to have some influence at least on the production team.

It does make sense though. Even if that does kind of sound like the devs themselves are, at least partially, causing their own crunch (in some cases--not all, obvs).

To be clear, this is different across different scales of dev. I find this mostly applies to what I consider "small indies" - like teams of 3-15. Big companies with big investors definitely have very different issues, but also, it's pretty uncommon for teams that small to be publisher-owned or directed - usually you either self-publish or you sell the game to a publisher when it's far enough along. (Or it's run by a solo dev who has the pull to get money from the start, which is the same thing in terms of directorial control)

anyway my thoughts on this besides popping in to provide Ace Attorney trivia in a sub thread are simply: when I say I want worse graphics I mean I want artists and programmers to be allowed to use new technology and processing power in service of making their lives easier and not in service of creating increasingly hard-to-perceive steps towards photorealism

A big part of the 2nd thought on art production was me struggling with the fact that I DO use and make tools to make my life easier but ALSO I have been in situations where I have absolutely fallen down rabbit holes trying to do things with tech "because I thought it was neat". The curse of spending way too much time "making it neat", sadly, does not apply only to photorealism, haha

Yeahhhhhhhh I was thinking about that as I wrote this comment... It happens in every discipline to some extent. Sometimes I go down a rabbit hole trying to make a really complex static analysis check not because it's demanded by work so much as it's a fascinating problem to me.

me using procgen animation to save myself having to make a bunch of transition animations: 👏
me using procgen animation to make an unnecessarily versatile and precise ladder climbing system that goes mostly unused: 🚫👈

This is really thoughtful and made me consider this phrase more carefully. I think you're right in every way. I guess the reason it resonates with me is that it pushes back in a humorous way against the AAA industry's insistence that bigger, more expensive games are the only path to progress. It doesn't hold together as an argument, though, for sure!!

But the other day I had a long disagreement with a co-worker over whether a price tag of $70 signaled a "higher quality" game than a $40 price tag, and he refused to budge. So I think that's the attitude the meme attacks (as you know, obviously), even if it doesn't actually make a coherent argument for an alternative

pretty sure the meme was a response to a very specific situation (AAA dev crunch, in a time where it was being talked about a lot, and in response to apologists saying "well, if they don't crunch they can't make the game as pretty and as long as it is") and it just got eaten by culture and taken too much of a general meaning.

I want game devs to have 9 to 5 jobs that leave them time and money for some leisure and eventual retirement and if that makes games shorter/uglier/whatever excuse is used to justify abusive working conditions today then I'm cool with that.

in reply to @dog's post:

Yeah, definitely. I feel like even the ones where you can tell they cared the most are struggling against every single obstacle the working conditions threw at them.

Playing through a lot of Telenet's catalog for my PMD documentary vid (which covered M.Y in this article, or Masayasu Yamamoto, and Shinichiro Tomie's work on the series), I definitely noticed something had to be off when I went from the great Ys III Genesis Port and good Valis III Genesis port, plus Gaiares and Granada, to the complete what-the-fuck moment of Traysia, despite Yamamoto being a lead programmer on both Traysia and Gaiares, two very different games in quality

Yeah I can see why he went to climax and chunsoft shortly after but hey at least this man programmed PMD Rescue Team at the end of it all