funbil

γ€Žπƒπ«πžπšπ¦ π‚π‘πšπ¬πžπ«γ€

  • they/them

music composer, writer, game designer and freakshow forever



danbo
@danbo

markmsx did a video on the somewhat facile "SUPEREASY" modes included in m2 shottriggers ports. i think he's right -- i'd feel like i conned someone out of money if i told them to buy those ports just to play the supereasy modes. i commented with thoughts about interesting easy mode in stg:

i prefer to simply say difficulty is the means by which the player is compelled to engage with mechanics -- the player would have no need to care about bombs if every attack was trivial to dodge

however, it is not really the only way to do this. scoring is another way to compel a player to engage with mechanics -- and it is done in both a rewarding (get the 5-chips for more multiplier) and punishing (if you die instead of bombing, your stage-end bonus gets smaller) manner. yet, the average player doesn't really care about scoring past perhaps extends -- leaderboard placement is not really very important for the average player, especially a rookie

however, we can casually observe that players can easily be made to care about illusory numbers -- playing a modern popular game often involves earning and managing 100 different currencies, and players generally enjoy optimising this process. hook this up to a very rich scoring system and we no longer have to rely so much on difficulty. what do they spend their ScoreBux on? it could literally be anything. they could be building and upgrading a little doll house, i earnestly believe this -- it seems like a gimme to tie these bux to some sort of ship upgrade system, but i think it's stale thinking, and i would avoid this as much as possible. good STG is balanced on a knife's edge, and is incompatible with conventional upgrade systems.

this is how i would do an easy mode that is still interesting, and probably has a quite broad appeal. double down on scoring, reign it back on "game over" style difficulty. a purist's "hard mode" must still exist because the 23-minute mountain climb 1cc is a beautiful thing and is very core to STG. thats what i think anyway


gosokkyu
@gosokkyu

fwiw I do think the supereasy modes (the more recent ones, anyway) are tuned more like caravan modes with relaxed difficulty but high score ceilings, not just to give competent players a reason to try them but also as an attempt to ingrain the fun of scoreplay onto newer players before they "graduate" to the standard game

I say "I think" because I don't see much evidence to suggest it's working, and I don't think the devs have much hard data, either, just occasional testimonials from people saying they bought game xyz when they heard it had an easy mode


You must log in to comment.

in reply to @danbo's post:

I was thinking about this while working on an STG (before I finally realised messing around with camera wobble for days isn't somehow going to produce tonnes of usable art!)

I feel like the real problem is that shmups don't teach you how to get better and comedy novice modes don't help. And this isn't just about understanding shmup fundamentals about hitboxes being small, but practicing some nonsense section or boss until you're consistent.

Campaign Mode. I figured for regular players you put the arcade mode as secondary importance and make the main focus a "Campaign." Dressed up Challenge Missions that, along with some fun stuff, give you the building blocks you need and then bottleneck progress with full stage clear. Clear missions, stages, then hit up arcade. You can also grade the missions and present it like the players "masterpiece."

Like Dreamer. I also played CosmoDreamer and LikeDreamer and I think their approach is great. You play through each stage individually via a level select and only then unlock the arcade mode to do it all in one sitting. Unlocking arcade mode might turn off the more hardcore players, and yeah you do each stage fully stocked, but at least you’re playing the actual game and not watching all the bosses shoot around you like Toriel.

Just my 2 scorebux, anyway!

i'm going to be a little bit rebellious and say that STG might not formally teach the player how to get better, but a modern port with good practice options is better than most games at creating an environment where the player can train, experiment and get better on their own

my brain shuts off if i'm dragged into some formal tutorial or forced onto a very regimented "oop don't play too much at once!" structure -- but even going back to say touhou 8, thinking "i have trouble with this spellcard" and being able to load it up and try different tactics/dodges made my brain awaken. most people can intuit maneuvers like streaming/cutbacks on their own if put in the right environment. compare this with even the most full-featured roguelite, which generally don't have any practice modes

i see it as more an issue of -- a lot of players don't have a reason to play or get better. modern games will shower a player in rewards and jingle keys in their face just for turning up and stagnating -- if we want a broader appeal (big if), we must learn to harness this sort of thing in a positive and non-toxic manner

It seems a bit jaded to say modern games are currencies and jingling keys! :) Some of the most popular mainstream games across the last few generations have been defined by difficulty.

I do agree some games are about baubles and "RPG mechanics" and that making every STG into [long parody of mobile game tropes that accidentally just describes Gothic wa Mahou Otome] doesn't sound interesting.

Reading back I think my ramblings were a bit too specific about a dumb idea I had. I feel, in a general sense, that providing normie players with explicit progression and meta goals, as the Dreamer games do with their world map, could help bring them on board better than Super Easy or assuming they have initiative to hammer things out in practice mode. Definitely agree that there shouldn’t be barriers for the hardcore players to just get started.

I've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot, since one of the small projects I wanna do sometime is an STG, but I've been trying to figure out how to make it actually easy while still making people engage with all the fun mechanics. I know it's absolutely doable, but might involve getting decently far away from the "core" of the genre, and I feel like you'd need to design easy mode first. Making an easy game is a lot harder than making a hard one, for sure!

i disagree, i think tuning a hard game downwards is much easier than tuning an easy game upwards. my recommendation is to balance at the very edge of your ability as a player, then tweak downwards from that (if you want a range of modes or whatever -- but putting that to the side and just making a fun kinda easy game would probably be welcomed by a fair amount of people!)

in reply to @gosokkyu's post:

it's not really a problem of tuning -- caravan games are completely tuned to be score-attacks, but a rookie player is unlikely to play them for scoring just for the sake of being ranked #3552 on some annoying global leaderboard

I accidentally discarded my long dumb reply so I'll offer a short dumb reply: rather than a raw dump of player names/scores, it'd be more effective to present the player ecosystem as percentile-based tiers/brackets, and to reward players with ranks/titles for reaching certain tiers (which also confer increased xp/currency gain, in tandem with whatever tertiary number-uppy system is in place), while also rotating/resetting the modes and conditions required to rank up, in order to ensure that nobody's permanently boxed out of achieving at least one or two silly nametags.

That's just one off-the-top idea of many, but I've largely lost my appetite for thinking about how to ameliorate leaderboards: a hundred sensible, practical ideas have already been floated and there are dozens of big and small iterations that exist in other genres that are provably effective and could be mimicked with relatively little effort, but until someone actually takes that first step, it's all just idle chatter. They'll continue to suck until they don't; that's all I got.