gnar

rawr im gnar >:3

  • he/him

aaron's side account (i also post more serious(?) things on @a2aaron)

20s, occasionally nsfw (vore)


Check out my cool projects:

Cohoard, a Cohost post formatter

BROKEN_FIELD, a shader art tool

Nyasynth, the World's Second Meowizer!

Bandcamp, full of my music


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gnar
@gnar

the discordification of wikis, the proliferation of javascript webapps, the rise of single page apps, and everything else you hate about the Modern Web is not because Companies Tricked Users into liking those things. it is because Users genuinely prefer that state of affairs. you wanted the web to do more things and so the web got more complicated.


Remetheus
@Remetheus

a lot of the time i see culture vs technology issues when it boils down to what makes people vocal about things and what people actually use. that is to say i see discourse and most people keep doing the thing where since the culture and the technology are so interrelated it's hard to separate and then try to tackle cultural problems solely on the basis of the medium they're on (without considering other concerns and vice versa)


it's not entirely incorrect considering for example how much manipulation and dark patterns are prevalent on websites and monetization and the consolidation of tech corp power but when i see someone say "i'd like twitter without the twitter" i just read it as "i like the social media but i could do without the culture of it. it's useful but i don't want to deal with the massive complexity of issues being there entails"

and well what culture would you want? then web 1.0 comes up, and "oh could i somehow have modern web but with that early culture?" we may not actually like going back to web 1.0 tech but are instead perhaps nostalgic for the experience and culture. and maybe that's kind of what cohost has in part been facilitating as an alternative

but then cohost does have a similar issue with sometimes not being palatable to people who don't know css or are good with computers because that's what gets shared a lot and comes across as the culture here. even though it's likely most posts don't include anything with those.

(i feel like i should point at mastodon and say there's a compelling argument to be made about trying to force a culture entirely through the medium and ending up with something more complicated and with different problems because of people being people)

personally, i think most of the modern web actually is easier to use for a majority of people. there's a lot of reasonable criticisms to be made about it where it's not the most sensible or actually accessible, but i understand it's easier for most people to just create and use with it for their needs. users choose what they want, the community ends up doing what's great for it!

but also it has also made it very hard for some individuals outside of that community who have varying issues and no alternative. a lot of the modern web can be very unfriendly to old machines and people with limited data budgets. access and connection becomes gated through if you can open up discord or some other webapp, and looking for some piece of information becomes if you're patient enough to load through various youtube videos to see if one's actually useful.

the old internet was no different in having similar issues of finding things and digital inequality (broken links! really dead-end forum posts! having to register for a forum just to read one post you wanted which was the most annoying!) but it just feels like the differences are becoming more pronounced for some but still invisible for the majority of others.

and hey, webp is great for servers, fine with most users, and really annoying for the smaller portion of individuals who have little support for what they need so they have to deal with the complexity of their case themselves, whether it's because of the format itself or their issues in having to deal with the format without alternative, especially when they're used to it not being a problem before. feels like how a lot of foss alternatives get started.

maybe it's just with things changing, it's not really the tech itself but that it's becoming more an effort to be able to even have alternatives. it's like video guides for me, because i do not prefer video guides even though it has been like a decade but i make do with them. even though most of the time i would like organized text instead and then maybe i'll watch the video. (people who post their video transcripts are the best. thank you people who include video summaries and post video transcripts.)

now youtube is at least getting better to skim because of automatic text transcripts and sections/chapters things that the creator doesn't need to spend too much effort on. some things can get better. and a lot of valid concerns with other things getting worse.


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in reply to @gnar's post:

I called it "leftist software developer self-flagellation" elsewhere and I still think that really applies. things couldn't have gotten the way they are because of a series of individual reasonable decisions, they got this way because Software Is Bad. and conversely, if the only way to fix software is to abolish capitalism, there's no point in even trying to make it better

the other example i think of is minecraft modding. modern minecraft modding sucks! everything is really complicated and customizable and its super impenetrable. but like, all of that stuff exists because people wanted to play with more than two mods installed. people did not like manually dropping .class files into their .minecraft install and hoping that the mods didn't somehow overwrite the same files. people wanted mod interop, so they built frameworks to facilitate that. people wanted mod managers and launchers to automatically download, configure, update, and run modpacks, so people built FTB/that dumb Twitch launcher people used for some reason/MultiMC/etc. people wanted to make the renderer, crafting system, UI, combat, world gen, and every other aspect of minecraft more moddable, so they built frameworks to facilitate that. it is because Modloader/Bukkit/Forge/Fabric exist that those 100 mod kitchen sink modpacks work at all.

and like, i do think there are a lot of aspects of it which are bad for stupid, money grubby reasons (in particular I hated when everything required the CurseForge launcher or the Twitch launcher to run anything, which really mostly existed so that Curse could show ads or Twitch could advertise Twitch) but critically those are also usually fixable! (thank god for multimc/atlauncher/the dozens of other alternatives)

and on the modding side, things did get simpler--if all you want is a tiny mod that adds three items, you can probably do it now with resource packs and command blocks! it used to be so hard to make interesting adventure maps and now every minecraft map has seems to have custom loot and effects and lore and what not, which is utterly amazing!

oh yeah i browse /r/minecraft from time to time and it's amazing the shit i see people make with no mods whatsoever, just the built-in stuff

also god yeah i remember the early days of just fucking dropping .class files in there. not fun.

also i see people saying stuff like "using the web as an application delivery platform is bad because this is Not What It Was Meant To Be" and like boy i sure don't think the developers of ARPANET meant for it to be used to transmit drawings of anthropomorphic animals having sex but here we are

also what other application platforms are there where

  • the runtime is on every computer
  • every runtime is also a debugger
  • it works cross-OS
  • you can get started with literally any text editor
  • and, maybe most importantly, it's all sandboxed to hell and back

also like, the runtime comes preloaded with so much! you think python is "batteries included"? the browser has it's own builtin GUI library with a host of highly polished and customizable widgets. an async event loop that is integrated into the language! it can save pictures and video without importing any external libraries! it does network requests! it can render 3d environments! legit, it was actually easier to implement some of the features in BROKEN_FIELD in a browser than with Rust purely because the browser has so much built in.

there's a difference between not the content it was intended to carry and not the structure it was built to be well suited to. and just because nothing unqualifiedly better currently exists doesn't mean it's good. what other application platforms are there where all of the runtimes suck in different ways and a lot of users have no control over which runtime they're using

i think there's a few confusing takes here.

first, i think it's quite strange to suggest that discord replaced wikis. it probably made a considerable amount of people not create another kind of place for discussion or Community Engagement or whatever, but it's not really that much harder to go click a few buttons on wikia (as evidenced by the hundred fuckbillion wikia wikis crowding my google searches, and a bunch of those wikis going indepdendent too).

the second one is that you seem to be suggesting that people prefer not having the features of traditional forums, because they're on platforms that don't have those features. this just seems incorrect? people were on forums because that's where people were, too, so i can't conclusively say that people preferred those, but that's really the thing here: people tend to use the things that they're familiar with, that exist, and that all the people are on. i think you really underestimate force of habit and network effects here, as well as the fact that 20-year-olds today might not ever have seen a phpbb forum and thus would not be familiar with the uses thereof.

that said i am now reminded of that thing about how twitter was losing its "heavy tweeters" in which a "heavy tweeter" was someone who looked at twitter almost every day and tweeted four times a week, and how these people only make up less than 10% of twitter's monthly users.

basically: more than 90% of people on twitter actually just use twitter as some sort of conksuck feed reader, i guess? with that context i'm not even sure how meaningful it is to talk about what features people want from social media if 90% of "active" users don't use even the core features

like you said, i feel like the web is in the state that it is not because people wanted it to be like that, but rather the fact that the platforms offered these features, people got used to them and now want them everywhere because they got used to them. it's also worth saying, i think, that the majority of web users don't know much about the technicality of what they're using, so it's not really reflected upon until something goes wrong. so like, companies just do their thing and people just go with the flow not because it's necessarily better or easier, but because... it's there...?

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