graham

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Making stuff to distract myself from existential dread

Art: @graham-illustrations
Dreams: @graham-dream-journal
Wizards: @make-up-a-wizard
Partner's Pottery: @kp-pottery


There's been some great posts about #lore lately, and I've been largely staying out of posting about it - instead opting for leaving comments.

That said, I've been getting this itching in my brain as I read the posts because it feels like we're so close to discussing some stuff that I learned way back in high school history class and never thought it'd be useful again.

There were these dudes from Greece who had arguments about how to chronicle history: their names were Thucydides and Herodotus. To be real reductive about their arguments: Thucydides believed in encyclopedic objectivity and sticking to confirmed facts, while Herodotus believed in using story as a way to make history more approachable. Both have merits to their arguments, and the nuance gets used in all sorts of history classes for essay topics.

What does this have to do with lore? Lore at its most basic level is history about a place that doesn't really exist in the real world.

Direct lore, as @videodante likes to call it, can follow either Greek man's school of thought: you can learn a character's history from the story of them ("your father fought in the Clone Wars") or from objective fact ("I am your father").

Indirect lore seems to me to be more directly aligned with Thucydides. It serves to flesh out the world and usually has a goal (maybe a secondary or tertiary goal) of making sure the world is internally consistent with all the other Thucydides-like facts and history. It's the "How do we square Kyber Crystals with Krayt Dragon Pearls?" legacy wookiepedia forum discussion.

I don't have a thesis here, but I wanted to include these Greek guys because they seemed foundational to lore, history, and storytelling, and their reductive representations of their arguments define two ends of a spectrum around how best to convey something. And it so happens that this spectrum seems to be the same one we keep talking about by accident in discussing lore.


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in reply to @graham's post:

modern franchise brain worms can't help but make me think in terms of "we were supposed to know these other dudes in the iliad were cool because they did a bunch of stuff in other epic poems that did not survive to modern day"

From Wikipedia if you don't mind that as a source:

Herodotus records in his Histories not only the events of the Persian Wars, but also geographical and ethnographical information, as well as the fables related to him during his extensive travels. Typically, he passes no definitive judgment on what he has heard. In the case of conflicting or unlikely accounts, he presents both sides, says what he believes and then invites readers to decide for themselves.

I really vibe with Herodotus. I think it's more captivating in fiction to have conflicting facts (see Skeen's backstory) with spaces left open to interpretation than to be able to look up exactly who or what for everything. For history too, I think there's a balance to be struck for including multiple perspectives and then suggesting what your beliefs are, given that info, versus trying to present everything in as "objective" a way as possible. This becomes more important, imo, as we get cameras and computers and delude ourselves into thinking that technology will make viewing frames perfectly objective.

Herodotus views history as a source of moral lessons, with conflicts and wars as misfortunes flowing from initial acts of injustice perpetuated through cycles of revenge.[64] In contrast, Thucydides claims to confine himself to factual reports of contemporary political and military events, based on unambiguous, first-hand, eye-witness accounts,[65] although, unlike Herodotus, he does not reveal his sources. Thucydides views life exclusively as political life, and history in terms of political history. Conventional moral considerations play no role in his analysis of political events while geographic and ethnographic aspects are omitted or, at best, of secondary importance.

My thesis is that "true objectivity" is impossible, and to try to conform to it is an effort in futility. Lore for telling stories should probably be balanced somewhere between the two ends of the spectrum - some parts need to be concrete facts (things make sound in space in this universe, lightsabers can cut through all but a select few materials, etc) but most should err towards Herodotus's method of presenting perspectives and generally providing an (even if it's implicit) opinion about which perspective is true or morally in the right.

That all being said, there's nothing wrong with making personal projects that are complex sudoku puzzles of worldbuilding. Great stuff (like Dwarf Forteress or Caves of Qud) can come out of building intentionally complex yet internally consistent systems and watching what happens. The difference is that the stories there are emergent rather than being told on purpose.