gull

do severals, be severals. how it is

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what's up, gull and such here, recent "wait there's more than one of us" realizers. whoops!

still giant robot fans, still pmd: explorers enthusiasts. imagine we are wearing a big button that says "ask us about Void Stranger". you should play all the games we like right now. the media backlog continues to grow ever further, and finally fucking continuing Initial D slips further and further out of reach.....


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whymog
@whymog

Cohost, help me out. I think Void Stranger is a landmark game, and I know many of you feel the same way, but I've been struggling so hard to convince anyone I know to get more than an hour or two into the darn thing.

It's a game that requires a good deal of trust from the player. I get that. It's not clear from the first hour or two exactly what the full scope of the game is, what its themes or narrative ambitions are, and so on. But I also feel like all the hints are there to entice attentive players, so...I dunno.

I know taste is subjective, and I don't expect that my all-time favorites list is going to look much like anyone else's. But the game's Steam reviews have kinda plateaued, which concerns me.

When I play Void Stranger, I feel like I'm playing the kind of game that ought to have reached a much broader audience — and I know there are tons of people out there who enjoy a game that asks them to put in a little work and challenge themselves for an immense narrative and intellectual reward. (Look at how big Tunic, Fez, The Witness, Obra Dinn, etc. are!) I feel like Void Stranger really deserves a similar level of acclaim and popularity. If only I could make it so.


gull
@gull

i feel like Void Stranger does a fantastic job at appearing to be a tough, unforgiving, tedious game - and this ends up filtering out a lot of people when they realize they're playing a sokoban absent the modern conveniences before learning of its own, or when they look at their lives count dwindling and fear messing up before they internalize that you need to go "fuck it we ball" and live with the consequences, or when they learn they are expected to run the same floors many times and quit at the seeming tedium without realizing they are armed with so much more potentially game-opening knowledge than they realize, or when they discover one of the navigational tricks on accident and assume it to be a punishment. void stranger is a tough game, but in a deceptive way that hides how gentle it really is for the people willing to hold out faith for it and get some rest on a hard puzzle and ask a friend if they're still stumped.

but i've also seen a lot of people just not click with the plot and vibes, seeing it as various shades of Thin Plot Haha Anime Cool And Funny if they only got through the early stages, to a couple-to-few giving up at the first credits roll because they made an incredibly uncharitable read of it and entirely refused to see what they might've been cooking. (generally if they make it past that and don't just go in the corner and cry at the idea of more tile puzzles before realizing they can smuggle their knowledge into the stuff ahead or at least go back to find more, they're on this crazy train for the rest of the ride and they are going to be wired directly into at least SOME aspect of the story and world)

either way, i feel like ultimately this all kind of comes back to the game not being designed for everyone, just those willing enough to listen to what it wants to get across. you have to place your faith and embrace the Void, but many people just aren't prepared to hold out for it when they haven't been wired directly into the game's thought processes yet. ohh how i wish they were though

(total tangential sidenote: i did once see one person who very clearly got filtered fairly early and pretty hard complain about ESL-rooted spelling and grammar errors that are almost entirely absent (there's a couple but hearing them speak of it you'd think they were Everywhere), how the game was completely failing to introduce new mechanics (a thing which it does at a shockingly steady pace even by the time you'd think they stopped), how they thought it was trying to be Haha Funnee Edgy and how it was CLEARLY made by 'basement dwelling incels' that 'think their leering lesbian anime is high art' before repeatedly drawing comparisons to the excessively-just-kind-of-fine Forspoken, their apparent GOTY and declaring VS entirely unworthy of praise or recognition. this person from the Universe Where Media Is Bad baffles and vexes me to this day.)


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in reply to @whymog's post:

For what it's worth, you're definitely not the only person with this problem. Friends of mine have been trying to get me to play Void Stranger off and on since its release, and I just can't get excited about playing it. "A black and white pixel art sokoban game" just doesn't appeal to me on a basic level and "trust me bro" isn't a good pitch. This is also why I never played Inscryption - showing me something that I can't get excited about and promising me that it'll get better in some nebulous indescribable way just isn't a good way to sell something. I assume most of the Void Stranger audience is people who love GB Studio games and would be playing this regardless of whether or not there's a larger hook, and that's great, but I look at it and just get reminded of playing Block Dude on a calculator to pass time in high school calculus.

I can understand that perspective! For what it's worth, I don't really enjoy GB Studio games, and I also didn't really enjoy Inscryption (loved the first part, but by the end I wasn't into what it was doing).

But yeah, the whole "trust me, dude, it gets really good" argument doesn't work well on me either. I never watch TV shows anymore because I'm so tired of people telling me I've just gotta get through the first season or three. It's like, are you serious? You want me to dump 30 hours into a dumb show I don't like because the writers finally figured out how to make it work several years into the project? I could literally finally get around to reading War and Peace in that time.

And the same argument fails to sway me with games, too. Which makes me think the argument itself is a bad one. And so what I'm wondering is: how can we better contextualize games that do offer something really valuable or noteworthy in exchange for some extra effort and/or a leap of faith? And how do we contextualize and present that exchange fairly and transparently without sacrificing the joy of discovery that is often inherent to enjoying games?

I feel like you'll occasionally have to just spoil one or two notable things for people. After a lot of people telling me "trust me bro" about Outer Wilds, the thing that finally got me to play it was finally being told about what one of the cool things actually was, and that was something that I wanted to see. That said, that's obviously not ideal. Anything that goes out of its way to reward patience and curiosity is just not going to be able to be experienced in a an uncompromised way by impatient or incurious people (categories that I too often find myself fitting in).

The other side of that, I think, is trust. I was willing to play hours of Glittermitten Grove to get to Frog Fractions 2 because I had played Twinbeard's previous (free, much shorter) game and found my "patience" rewarded there. I know a lot of the Void Stranger audience bought in because they loved ZeroRanger and they trusted the team to deliver unto them a good time. You'll even get weird, unearned examples of this - Blue Box Games and Abandoned being a game that got a lot of people willing to dedicate their time to uninteresting early material just because they thought it was secretly from a team they trusted.

Imo it's because, on top of being an indie game and all that, it's mixing two things that have a higher chance of pushing people away than interesting them: puzzle and japanese design aesthetics (I know the game isn't japanese, it's just designed in a similar way).

Another issue is that for me and I think a relatively big part of the modern puzzle audience, it's doing things that I specifically don't want in puzzle games. Which I'd tend to associate with japanese design: stuff like expecting the player to care about the game/the devs going in (they're not even showing the main mechanic in the trailer!!), asking for a big time investment, getting good after x amount of time, etc.
Like I usually want puzzle to be "minimalist", not redoing things I've already solved and figured out, and definitely not spending 50h+ of replaying the game to unlock stuff while making sure I'm not messing up because there's no undo. So while VS seems to be doing some really cool stuff, it's also why I stayed away. To me it almost seems like a dungeon crawler, with the repetitive content that goes with it.

But, I'd also say that another issue is that a lot of the fanbase of the game seem to not be familiar with puzzle games too, so it makes it extra difficult for them to talk about the game in a way that would both convince people that like puzzles and those who think they don't like puzzles.
Though the fact that it attracted a different audience means it's already a lot more popular than the usual puzzle game (it's almost at Stephen's Sausage Roll review numbers!), so you probably shouldn't be looking at the puzzle side of it.

Tbh I think the biggest issue is making people listen when you say "this game is good" but it looks like a game boy game. At least some gaming site wrote about it (and it definitely is on people's radar), which is already pretty special.

I think this is mostly because of how it does hostility. Since most hostile games' hostility comes in the form of difficulty, whereas VS' comes through knowledge and the lack thereof. Losing to a difficulty check is a lot less emotionally damaging than losing to a knowledge check - feeling like you're not good enough is more actionable than feeling stupid. And I can say with confidence it's by design. It's very much intentionally a game for the sickos that would enjoy it, it's actively designed to self-select its audience, and the true final ending basically all but confirms it.

I think my experience varies, honestly! Sometimes I find knowledge checks more frustrating than skill checks, but other times it's the exact opposite. I think it all comes down to how well-designed that challenge is: how well the difficulty ramp is tuned, how much trust and camaraderie the player has established with the game and its designers' intent, and so on. I imagine this also varies significantly from person to person, and in a small part it also comes down to a certain literacy with the medium that informs how you consider challenges in the abstract.

I'm not sure how I interpret the true ending myself. I just keep thinking back to how I played the first couple hours of Void Stranger, thought it was okay, and dropped it. It took a friend nudging me to play just a bit more for the game to click for me. From there, I was off to the races for another 60+ hours. My read on that ending is it's much more about human connection and shared ideals than it is saying "congratulations, you're a certified sicko, high five." My point here is that this is a game that was absolutely made for me, but I had no idea until I played beyond the point where I was ready to abandon it. I fear other people are going to make the same mistake I did, which is, I think, largely what motivated this post.

Yeah, absolutely, it definitely varies. I think it's more that like, it's harder to find that camaradirie in a failed knowledge check than, say, getting hit by a mimic in Dark Souls. It's much more frustrating to miss an opportunity because of some shit you didn't think about rather than a lack of caution. And I think a lot of people don't look past the initial feeling of frustration to actually feel the developer intent. Like you said, it's about trust and camaraderie, and I think if you don't have that trust going in, it's really really easy to feel like the game is too obtuse, rather than that the developers are trying to tell you something. Hell, if I didn't go in with a layer of trust created by the Steam page's tips section, I don't think I would have enjoyed this game at all.

As for the ending, to be clear, I don't think it's a "you're a sicko, high-five" situation, but I do think like. The intentionality of the line "And if you got this far, I think you understand it too." Because that, to me, felt like the whole Point. The people who are the sort of people who want to hear the message are the ones that will get to it. I think it's extremely about human connection, by intentionally designing a game that will connect with the people who want to connect with it.