well, it's bea / multifaceted megafauna / mixed-race lebanese / plural, median (✨: Sylvia /🔔: Rime /🎙️: Alex / 🥊: Stella) / over 30, still not tired of our bullshit / 🔞 / no flirting unless explicitly cleared to do so / PFP: Daikanu


lutz
@lutz

several months ago now on an episode of game studies study buddies--i do not recall which one, because of the elapsed span of time, which in and of itself feels significant--i made some comments about how i was playing Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom and had some thoughts on its whole deal i wanted to write up. some folks seemed interested and i was like "oh don't worry it'll happen, i just need to finish the game!"

several days ago, i booted up my switch to check out the mario rpg remake, and was surprised to see the Tears of the Kingdom icon in my little gallery, because i have not played the game since early july and quite honestly forgot it exists.

"oh, you were gonna write about that," i said to myself, "because it felt so very odd. maybe you should finish it up and get your thoughts collected and--"

i didn't finish the game. i didn't even dive back in. i realized i had no interest in the game, at all. i realized the months had whittled away whatever desire i had to see the thing through to its end, to see how the game's final gestures aligned with or complicated the thoughts i'd had while completing the first two dungeons and tooling around hyrule building trucks for koroks.

and maybe that was the point, the result, the output. maybe me bouncing off the game is the trajectory to trace from the thoughts i was having.

so here we go:


hystericempress
@hystericempress

🔔 This really sharply nails down a lot of what we found so... low-grade frustrating about Tears of the Kingdom. Not enough to truly dislike it, because it didn't produce even a strong enough emotion for that, but rather, to find dispiriting about it, to watch as our once white-hot passion for the series evaporated in the face of an endless procession of lifeless 'challenges' whose solutions are so open-ended as to be devoid of character.

I'm sure a lot of people got a lot out of the 'play YOUR way' pitch and had a great deal of fun building snazzy machines, but... once the novelty wore off for us, the total lack of character in the puzzles presented to us left us feeling as though completion would've been more like a participation trophy. It only made the supposed return to more 'traditional' Zelda-style dungeons feel more like an empty afterthought when we found them even less involving or exciting than Breath of the Wild's elaborate karakuri puzzlebox Divine Beast dungeons.

I think this is one of the fundamental failure modes of the 'play like a designer' trend, which is it becomes a justifiable reason to design less, to care less about whether or not a game has any particular memorable moments in its own right, rather than merely a sandbox for the player to bring their own experiences into. And it's a tricky nail to hit, at that, because no sandbox system, no toolbox of mechanics, can TRULY account for everything a player might do. You can 'design your own experience,' but the nature of 'design' as a verb is still proscribed. It makes me feel less involved, not more, if I have to strain against the limitations of that system to find a way to express the experience I DID want.

I think much of this is an assumption that players want to be in communication with an audience(and specifically, a social media audience), rather than in communication with the people who actually made the game. I am firmly in the latter camp. I get an effusive thrill out of figuring out not 'how to get past the puzzle,' but rather, 'how did the designers want me to get past this puzzle,' for that flickering hint of understanding I can have with people half a world away, for the deciphering of intent and logic, for its nature as a puzzle, a thing that conceals whose purpose is to reveal.

Or I suppose I could glue together a helicopter and fly over it and never bother. And then do roughly the same thing for every other puzzle. It's for somebody, assuredly. Just not us.


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in reply to @lutz's post:

It's weird! I really enjoyed my time with the game, to the point I was dragging out doing challenges for myself before I went to do the final boss. Then I put down the game and never felt the urge to play it again.

I feel similarly about the Animal Crossing game at the start of the pandemic--played intensely, enjoyed it at the time, but I don't need to go back.

This is sort of in line with my experience, thinking back on it. There's definitely other things that contributed to my apathy in comparison to BotW - the reuse of the map diluted some of the exploration magic for me, the story feels like an afterthought - but I do think the zonai/player as developer stuff is definitely a major contributor. BotW felt like you could break or trivialize some of systemic interaction if you were clever about it; ToTK invites you to do it constantly. I think there was something rewarding about BotW's constraints and power sets that made it feel gratifying and special to find a clever or unintended solution to a thing; in ToTK, every solution feels unintended, because you have a backpack full of tools that can break the game over your knee whenever you want.

Every time I had to climb up to one of those sky labyrinths, which frequently involved me chaining hot air balloon platforms together because they would vanish after a certain point, I never really felt like I was engineering a clever solution as much as just stapling stuff together to get the job done.

They tried to make a zelda game where every puzzle was dumping a pile of lego at your feet and then playing the puzzle tune when you cobbled some garbage together. The problem is I didn't want to play legos, I wanted to play zelda.
Left my save game underground next to a pile of shit I didn't want to put together, later deleted the game so my kids could play fortnite

i remember one of my early reactions to TotK was shitposting about "attaching a cheese pizza to the end of my lightsaber", as an acknowledgement that this game just lets you do whatever. i almost never play AAA games at launch so it was fun to be part of that first week or so of euphoria over how jam-packed and full of possibility the game felt. and discovering the weird, hostile underworld of the Depths was genuinely special.

but ultimately that particular joke isn't possible: there are lightsabers in the game for sure, and you can cook pizzas now because they added tomatoes and cheese. but cooked dishes (that aren't themselves ingredients) can't be physically manifest in the world, they're pure inventory items.

if the game were on PC and moddable, i feel like that kind of shit is absolutely what fans would've modded in, someone would've made little in-world meshes for every single cooked food item, so you could have a shrimp cocktail as the hood ornament for your fire-belching wooden cadillac, or whatever. and people would add multiplayer and there'd be entire player-created apartment complexes full of roleplayers, roving griefer squads, a sex dungeon beneath Death Mountain, etc etc.

but it's obviously not a PC game, and never will be, not counting homebrewers and emulation folks who operate on the opposite side of the law from Nintendo. so until decades from now once Nintendo has fully lost interest in it, TotK will be this finite bag of toys that a lot of people got bored with sooner than they were expecting. Nintendo doesn't care obviously, it made shitloads of money and ticked all the "big sequel to big franchise" boxes they had. but i do think it will affect the game's legacy in a weird way that goes far beyond the relatively small sphere of people who mod console games.

i think this is a great point in that it helps me put together why the fusion stuff feels so meh--i also remember immediately trying to see if i could attach meals to weapons and feeling disappointed. there is something about the system that initially seems to promise so much and yet, it turns out, it's mostly dedicated to sustaining the new weapon/shield systems and specific types of doohickey construction

yeah, and i think the other major new systems had their own version of this. the ultrahand stuff is about creating an elaborate sandbox for movement/velocity play which they're able to milk really well in the shrines (and a few specially crafted puzzle types, eg the "prop up the sign" challenges), but the main game world kind of collapses that depth because usually, the player is just seeking to gain altitude (also a critical resource in BotW, but with fewer more carefully designed paths to gaining) or distance (which the paraglider was already brilliant for, so it's usually just another functor for altitude). and it's certainly fun but the game world is about going places, there's no Tony-Hawk-like dynamic of inherent meaning around movement other than what places you can reach. and the scope of the world means that everything you make kinda has to be disposable (and auto-build has a resource cost and so doesn't really address this).

i did actually quite enjoy my time with the game and finished its story, i just think it's one of those experiences that you think back on and are like "gosh, i just got really obsessed with this particular set of things you do in that game!" and everything was kind of bent towards that. it's a very very different thing in experiential memory from something like BotW, which felt like this artist's statement of what Zelda had meant, and could now mean in a newer era of the medium. nothing in TotK quite eclipses the jolt of first emerging into that new territory at the beginning of BotW, for me personally. i'm really curious what TotK will feel like to go back to in maybe 4 or 5 years, when i get a nostalgia craving for it, though.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, and it helps me understand why I had no interest in this game that everyone I knew was so excited about. Also why I hated the settlement building in FO4, and have zero interest in Starfield as a result.

I don't want to do the game designer's job for them. I can build a little post-apocalyptic settlement? That's your job. And, in fact, you already did that job, you're just leaving the last 5% of it to me, and the rewards aren't even mechanically interesting.

Both games feel like they landed in the wrong spot on a continuum between player freedom and dev guidance. If you had way more freedom to just build whatever, without other gameplay pressures, it would be a lot more fun to engage with. But because they also want to fit it into this other type of game... it just feels like the worst of both worlds.

This perfectly captured why I chose not to buy TotK. I wanna play Zelda for Zelda, not janky "play around and see what you can create" vibes. That sort of sandbox vibe was my least favourite part of BotW, and having an entire game built around "here's the pieces, go nuts" just doesn't work with Zelda for me.

Oh huh. You found the right words to describe this intangible feeling of "why isn't this more fun" at the back of my skull. So much of the gameplay loop felt wildly anhedonic to me.

Like, it occurred to me way too late that the issue of weapon durability somehow got exacerbated by also having to find powerful items to fuse now. Suddenly I felt I couldn't waste the "good weapons" on weak enemies because I did not want them to break mid-fight on strong enemies. And strong enemies are the ones that drop the good fusing items… which I might also need for armor upgrades, so I'd hoard them anyway.

At least finding Koroks was still fun.

For me, the biggest flaw was how often assembling things was the wrong choice to solve a problem. Sure, you can make a cool car, but five seconds from now you'll drive it off a cliff, or into the water, and then you're back to using the same four tools because it's slightly easier. You could assemble a cannon array, or you can just sit back and fire fifty bat-eye arrows, or you can just run straight at the enemy's face and stab them and it's basically the same chance of surviving.

You can do a dozen different things, but all of them are slightly inconvenient so you just do the same stupid thing.

This is a simulator of being forty years old.