iiotenki

The Tony Hawk of Tokimeki Memorial

A most of the time Japanese>English game translator and writer and all the time dating sim wonk.



iiotenki
@iiotenki

Seeing as I'm in the process of finding an actual, not-Airbnb sort of place to stay in Japan so I can have things like, say, a local bank account and a working cell phone number, I can't say I'm gonna be especially talkative on here for the next couple of weeks, at least compared to my normal activity on Twitter. But, I still wanna post stuff that makes this account different from my other antics elsewhere since I haven't really had a place to post longer form text that isn't my Medium blog, which isn't something I like to use for stuff I write off the cuff. So to break this account in, let's talk about one of the (egg)bugbears that looms over a lot of my coverage: what the hell makes a dating sim a dating sim in my book and what makes them different from those similar-looking adventure and novel games of the visual/sound variety you also find in Japanese games?


iiotenki
@iiotenki

Been a while since I've been a giant pedant about this stuff, but since I've been hearing YouTube people refer to the Phoenix Wright games as visual novels again in light of the Edgeworth compilation (and trust me, I get why people are prone to doing that), gonna just go ahead and dig this post back up and point to it like the Simpsons bus driver tapping on the sign. Together, we can be more precise about how we talk about all of these games and more accurately reflect their historical context and creative intentions. šŸ¤


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in reply to @iiotenki's post:

thanks for such an insightful post tom!! I’ve generally known a lot of the rough distinction & history but since sound novels are way less commonly localized it’s one I’ve always been unsure about. of course now that I know this, I realize that my game ESC is basically a sound novel. so I’m glad I have that distinction now haha

Sure! Thank you for reading and I'm glad you got some use out of it! Sound novels are definitely the thorniest for folks to pick out and it wasn't until I really sat down and while I definitely always had a "I know one when I see one" sort of sense about it, it wasn't until I saw down a few months ago and real thought about it that I found a way to quantify those difference and it's nice to hear they make sense to someone who isn't necessarily as knee-deep in all this as me, ahaha. But certainly given your influences when it comes to stuff like Radical Dreamers in particular, ESC always personally struck me as being at least sound novel adjacent and it's cool to hear you feel the same. After playing a chunk of the Tsukihime remake recently and really enjoying what it does with that format, it really makes me thirst for more proper sound novels like it, they do cool stuff worth studying!!!

I thought I had a good idea, and thanks to your article there I knew I wasn't a million miles off the mark - but that history around the copyrighted term is super interesting! Do you know if there was any other backlash from other development houses over the term, or did they all just pick up visual novel and move on?

First off off, thanks for reading! Gratifying to hear folks have found it useful! 😌But to answer your question, somewhat the latter, yeah. Visual novel is itself a trademarked term by the development team who came up with as a workaround to Chunsoft's ownership, so historically, a lot of games have still been marketed as "adventure" in that very broad sense as sort of a safe, generic alternative, even if they have none of the mechanics and interaction of those historical games. But, the owner of the visual novel trademark has never been particularly litigious about it as far as I know, so there is increasingly an uptick in games being openly marketed in Japan as visual novels, perhaps because they think the term has effectively been genericized and ownership can't be enforced. The term still largely gets used with foreign developed games specifically, but I am definitely seeing more and more Japanese games self-identify as visual novels, too, especially in the last two or three years.

To that effect, text is confined to an isolated text box, rather than occupying the full real estate of the screen

I think Leaf struck a distinction whereby visual novel presentation was full screen, while the isolated text box presentation was AVG. Other developers who used "visual novel" in Japanese mostly also followed that for some years. That's broken down by now, but I think that's under the influence of English speakers using visual novel for both.

in reply to @iiotenki's post:

Sure! Thank YOU for reading! I always worry that I come across as preachy and a know-it-all, so it's always genuinely nice to hear when people get something out of what I write. :eggbug-relieved:

I always find it interesting how types of games develop from each other, and romance sims and novel games never really had a big presence over here in the US so being a little weeb I'd see references to Tokimemo but only had a vaguest idea what it was like. Like the game equivalent of seeing SMAP refs but without Johnny's actively trying to keep you from even looking at them.

Awesome write! People tend to think "visual novel" because anime portrait over text boxes in a largely text based game, but games like Ace Attorney and Tokimeki are clearly in different genres. The gameplay is nothing alike, unless the gameplay to the person is... reading?

Thanks! And yeah, I think it's largely a consequence of two things: 1. we lost the thread in terms of localization after a handful of notable adventure games without keeping current with things that came out after the early 90s and then once VNs did start getting officially translated with some regularity towards the end of the 2000s, it was often out of order, completely muddying the evolutionary trajectory, and 2. western media in the interim generally not being as diligent in their coverage as they should've been, despite many outlets often having dedicate Japanese and/or "bilingual" staff (to dubiously varying degrees).

There's definitely been a lot of revisionism at play, especially the last 15 years, which is frustrating, because people actually used to have more accurate vocabulary to describe stuff like Ace Attorney. If you look up old reviews of that original DS release for 1, you'll absolutely see reviewers properly refer to it as an adventure game. But now? I think you'd struggle to ever see those words used even though the mechanics, structure, and presentation of the series haven't changed that much. You could argue that the Carmen Sandiego games share a lot in common with Ace Attorney and you don't see anyone calling those visual novels. I actually once tried to amend the Ace Attorney Wikipedia entry to change the genre to adventure game and left proper notes explaining why and my edit was nuked in like an hour, amazingly. 😩

It also doesn't help that younger Japanese journalists have also just started to uncritically incorporate the western definitions into their own writing, so you can't even count on native coverage for these games always using the legacy native definitions. It's not like I lose sleep over this at night, I know this is a hill that only so many other people are gonna die on with me, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't frustrating since I feel like making these distinctions just makes it easier to quickly tell these games apart for people who might be understandably less deeply versed in this stuff. šŸ˜µā€šŸ’«

I think a lot of this definitely has to do with westerners writing off the group of genres as the "same thing", due to unfamiliarity, or seeing them as lesser games because reading, or whatever else. That attitude became mainstream for a pretty long time, and we still somewhat see it in the form of people calling Persona a "visual novel" or "dating sim".

I don't know how to correct this in the broader landscape other than posts like this that make a clear distinction

one of my dear friends recently made a powerpoint presentation for our groupchat in which she got all autistic about the otome genre and how different it is from other dating sims (i.e. ecchi or anything with more male-PC oriented writing), and these kinds of writeups always really make me appreciate how storied and diverse all the subgenres of "visual novel" really are

This one drives me crazy, thank you

One of my big pet peeves is when people try to do "a hot dog is a sandwich" type discussions with media genres, where they just tediously conflate things with the barest of similarities