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Science
@Science

Thorn RPG released! I have not played it, its description just reminded me of the thing I am always thinking of. Thorn is a Diceless, Healthless game where you use resources to move the game forward. Enemies die in one hit. I don't know how much fighting is in Thorn, but it sounds like that's the main conflict it puts in people's way (as many games do). I have been wondering for a while what we, as small rpg people, could do to move away from this.


fools-pyrite
@fools-pyrite

100% agreed. The best explanation of why video and tabletop games focus so heavily on combat (outside of "genre literature focuses heavily on fights") I've read comes from David Graeber's Utopia of Rules, which is a collection of three essays which only references D&D in a single paragraph. I still think the framework it builds is useful for thinking about game design though!

In the first essay, "Dead Zones of the Imagination: An Essay on Structural Stupidity" Graeber lays out how violence simplifies and flattens interaction between people. Here is a concise summary he gives early on:

[V]iolence may well be the only form of human action by which it is possible to have relatively predictable effects on the actions of a person about whom you understand nothing. Pretty much any other way one might try to influence another’s actions, one at least has to have some idea who they think they are, who they think you are, what they might want out of the situation, and what their aversions and proclivities are. Hit them over the head hard enough and all of this becomes irrelevant.

Later in the same book, Graeber has a chapter titled "Bureaucratization of the Antibureaucratic Fantasy". In it he touches on D&D:

There are catalogs for everything: types of monsters (stone giants, ice giants, fire giants …), each with carefully tabulated powers and average number of hit points (how hard it is to kill them); human abilities (strength, intelligence, wisdom, dexterity, constitution …); lists of spells available at different levels of capacity (magic missile, fireball, passwall …); types of gods or demons; effectiveness of different sorts of armor and weapons; even moral character (one can be lawful, neutral, or chaotic; good, neutral, or evil; combining these produces nine possible basic moral types …). The books are distantly evocative of Medieval bestiaries and grimoires. But they are largely composed of statistics.

These catalogs mostly exist to enable the game to simulate violence: the center of gravity of monsters, stats, hit points, spells, armors, and alignments is the combat system. Violence allows the RPG author and referee to order the world in a simple, legible way the same as it allows the bureaucrat. The violent "verbs" players have access to can be much simpler and broader than the non-violent "verbs", because they don't require a deep understanding of the situation at hand. To paraphrase Graeber's quote above, "[h]it them over the head hard enough and all of [the complex NPC backstories] becomes irrelevant." Outside the rules, violence also simplifies the scenario. "Three automatons who fight to the death" is simpler to write and run than "three wolves, hungry to the point of starvation" which is simpler again than "a confused dryad, who mistakenly believes the players to be part of a logging operation (see Bunyan Co on pg XX)". As we move further from hitting people over the head, the situation becomes more complex and therefore more difficult to systematize.

Unfortunately I don't have a prescription, just a diagnosis: the simplifying effects of violence make it more amenable to gamification.

As an aside, the inverse is also true: the more you simplify social mechanics, the more violent they look. "Conversation fight" systems like Negotiation in Griftlands or my dim memories of Burning Wheel's "Duel of Wits" model an argument like a battle. I find these sorts of systems extremely unsatisfying, because they render social interaction exactly as flat as a combat encounter. Instead of granting interesting mechanical complexity to conversation, they strip away all the social complexity! This is fine in a video game (which is a finite machine that requires all creative labor up-front), but in an RPG I don't see the benefit.


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in reply to @Science's post:

You gotta check out NSR games. The emphasis on exploration has in my experience overshadowed any combat. I think you could definitely get a game going like Mothership where exploration and investigation could contribute to a big-picture conflict in a context where violence would be inappropriate.

Here are some games that seem to fit your criteria but you didn't mention. Sorry if you've heard of them before!

  • Belonging Outside Belonging games (https://buriedwithoutceremony.com/belonging) - I haven't played these, but have heard a lot about them and they seem a really good fit for what you describe. Diceless, GM-less, has conflict that (I think?) doesn't result in combat

Powered by the Apocalypse games also tend to de-emphasize combat to some extent, so that it is more "a tool you could use" and not "the point of the game around which 80%+ of rules have been built". Generally, they treat fighting someone with roughly the same depth as "trying to escape a bad situation" or "reading the room" or "manipulating someone". These games are based on Apocalypse World, where all those things I just mentioned are distinct "moves". Apocalypse World itself is very focused on surviving a post-apocalypse so it has lots of rules about getting hurt, but any of those moves might result in you getting hurt without invoking a combat per se. The descendants below further de-emphasize combat.

  • Monsterhearts (https://buriedwithoutceremony.com/monsterhearts) is a game about playing teenage monsters. It's mainly focused on teen/highschool drama, so conflicts tend to be about social status, romance/dating, and questioning whether someone is really your friend. It's possible to physically fight, and certain playbooks lean towards doing that, but that's not the focus of the game.
  • Blades in the Dark (https://bladesinthedark.com/) is a game of doing heists. It definitely allows combat, and tends to include it (when you inevitably get caught in your heist), but discourages killing as a solution (it's dangerous because they may become a ghost that attacks or haunts you, and it draws attention because the Spirit Wardens (Ghost Police) immediately know when someone dies and send people to investigate immediately). Your goals on a mission tend to be things like "steal an item", "sell your illegal goods", "sabotage something", "blackmail an official" etc

in reply to @fools-pyrite's post:

I don't think it escapes the "conversation fight" problem, but one approach I've been toying with is an RPG where the struggle, the dice rolls, center not so much around talking to someone as getting access to the person you want to talk to. The actual conversation is played out diceless, but the struggle of navigating social norms to arrange a meeting, or of finding a safe private area to talk, or even just of getting across information in a pitched battle, gets harder and harder depending on how intimate you want the conversation to be.

as someone who's now spent many years making a video game where you feed animals instead of attack them, it's really time-consuming to add all the individual behaviors for how different animals react to the presence of food, the whole sequence of chasing it and picking up and eating it which is entirely animal-specific since it depends drastically on their personality/anatomy, and tons of special cases for different animal types that react in drastically different ways... i sure do miss when a gun does 3 damage and the enemy explodes when it hits zero 😆

but this is way more fun and more people should try it!

I actually think Duel of Wits works really well for the thing it's designed to do, but that thing is not to have characters actually negotiate with each other. The book is pretty clear (though imo still not clear enough, everyone gets it wrong) that Duel of Wits is about how an audience will percieve the debate, not about influencing your interlocutor. It's Roman Senate Simulator, where the goal is to talk past your opponent and seem cool/good.

Unfortunately, most BW campaigns are not Roman Senate Simulator and so the relative niche-ness of DoW's RAW deployment tends to get lost.

I think I have run into people with IRL combat experience who feel like typical RPG combat is too simple or poorly game-ified. On the other hand, I know people, including myself to a degree, who prefer highly mechanized and gamey social/conversational mechanics, because IRL social complexity is genuinely difficult to manage, and they don't want their character's social capabilities to be limited by their own.

So, there's certainly trends for what areas and types of gamification are considered satisfactory, but those are interesting perspectives I think

I'm reminded of this essay by Rutskarn about Boot Hill, an early Gygax system. Boot Hill doesn't seek to be combat-free, rather, it simulates gun combat a little too effectively. The first shot fired in combat is frequently deadly; a player or NPC might have enough just composire to fire back once they've been mortally wounded, before they bleed out minutes later.

This lead to a very careful, deliberate playstyle. If the PCs start a fight that they're not guaranteed to win immediately, they're very likely going to die.

That’s a good point - horror or highly lethal games can reduce the use of combat because players will use other avenues to achieve their goals.
I still think it’s notable that the dice we’re fearing in Boot Hill are almost entirely about shooting guns at each other. Even games where violence exists as a fail-state to be avoided tend toward focusing their rules on violence

To Graeber's point, it's worth noting that Gygax was an insurance actuary - someone used to filing people into quantified stacks of stats. A lot about early D&D and the hobby that descended from it makes more sense when you keep that in mind. Lots of tables, lots of quantified bits, lots of percent chances.