jckarter

everyone already knows i'm a dog

the swift programming language is my fault to some degree. mostly here to see dogs, shitpost, fix old computers, and/or talk about math and weird computer programming things. for effortposts check the #longpost pinned tag. asks are open.


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jckarter

cr1901
@cr1901

In this "fun"-filled article, we get to see a retrocomputing enthusiast:

  1. Try to find a UNIX workstation that doesn't cost a huge sum of money, and get lucky.
  2. Then try to find HP-UX install media, which HP doesn't have, so they have to ask on Fediverse to find people with the correct install media.
  3. Then try to run period correct software that was written for an earlier version of HP-UX (which runs thanks to backwards compatibility) because they can't find a version online tailored to later versions of HP-UX.

They failed to run a lot of software they specifically got for their shiny new HP-UX. This is because a lot of UNIX workstation software is/was proprietary, and required licenses to use. Even the demo licenses have expired long ago. And the still-existing vendors aren't interested in helping out enthusiasts and/or don't even have the tools generate licenses for their old versions anymore. Don't take my work for it; the author of the linked article tried to get licenses, and all the conversations fizzled out.

This article is a harsh lesson in how FlexLM and DRM are cancers, and companies treat their own old software like trash to be swept away. Software is being destroyed at an alarming rate due to negligence. Even if the software isn't commercially viable anymore and the hardware platforms are niche, I argue that hard work and energy put into creating the software is only truly lost when people can't1 run those old versions anymore.

I personally don't have nostalgia for UNIX workstations, and if I had one (too damn expensive :/), I'd run one of the FOSS BSDs on it b/c I enjoy running period-incorrect software on old machines. But I feel horrible for those UNIX workstation enthusiasts who don't share my aesthetic. They're having significant trouble getting their old machines to run the way they want, to enjoy computing on their own terms.

I got pretty angry reading this. Which I take as: the article is doing a good job. I don't usually see problems like this in the DOS world. I wonder why...

  1. As opposed to don't run those old versions anymore; I'm not certain don't happens before can't. If the software is available to play with, people will use it.

selectric
@selectric

unfortunately, all deeply accurate. and it pains me to see--it's my belief that if you're going to collect old unix workstations, it's important to remember the context. these machines were very rarely expected to run on their own. they boot up with the expectation that they're going to be pulling resources from the network to get themselves going. but, okay, let's assume you've got a computer lying around that can feed it whatever it needs to get going.

now what? i ran into this when i picked up an old VAXstation on the cheap... DEC was acquired by Compaq, which was acquired by Hewlett-Packard, which split itself up into HP and Hewlett-Packard Enterprise, and we're now at the point where anyone who cared about DEC's products has, with a high degree of probability, left the company. probably to retire so they don't have to think about computers in a professional capacity ever again. (fates bless them for achieving freedom.) since basically nobody's left who cares, there's no interest in trying to make software and patches and documentation findable. HP's support sites were legendarily fragmented and bad even before the corporate split. good luck if you want anything from the pre-Oracle days at Sun.

i met someone recently who affectionately refers to his collection of vintage computing as e-waste. he's gone to great lengths to ensure that everything remains functional, and that they can boot up in something resembling the environment they expect to thrive in. but this requires effort, and frankly it requires knowing the right people to be able to get yr hands on software. the retrocomputing community makes it easier, of course, but some things are still only whispered about because the patents are still active, or even more improbably, the software's still in development. HP sold VMS, the old DEC operating system, off to a third-party company who's still developing and supporting it. but only for x86. the old hobbyist-license program that people were using to keep old VAXen running? dead, as far as i can tell. HPE shut their hobbyist program down when they transferred the rights to VMS, and the new company isn't offering them. it says it right there on the new sign-up page:

Please note that in accordance with the license agreement between VMS Software Inc. and HPE, VMS Software Inc. are not able to distribute VAX licenses.

so go fuck yrself, i guess. it breaks my heart a little that these elements of computing history are so thoroughly abandoned and lost. partly out of nostalgia, to be sure, whomst among us doesn't yearn for when things... at least, we thought they sucked less. in some objective ways, they did. but goddamn, it sucks to see old ideas get implemented in worse ways--or, even more annoyingly, old ideas get completely ignored in favour of some shiny bullshit that isn't even half-baked.

sic transit gloria, and all that shit. keep circulating the tapes.


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in reply to @cr1901's post:

I read this article too and had a similar reaction. I play a lot of old games, but I hardly own any vintage hardware greatly preferring modern software emulation solutions and retro remakes and collections.

The author really lost me at trying to install Pro/E especially as someone who doesn't have the design background. I did my Sr. design work on what were then brand-new Sun workstations in my college's engineering lab and started my career on Pro/E and SolidWorks and do not have any nostalgia or affection for turn-of-the-century CAD programs. If you want to poke around with a CAD program, Fusion360 literally runs in a browser and you can hit CTRL+P to print or send something to a 3D printer instead of trying to find another set of drivers for a printer that won't work.

I think that's the difference for me. Retrogaming - or even retro productivity software - in my mind is distinct from or vintage hardware as a hobby.

I was a newly minted engineer at PTC when it discontinued the HP-UX version of Pro/E. It was one of the last Unices still supported by that software, if not the last one before it became Windows NT only.

The engineers supporting that version were relieved to see it, or any of the other Unix versions for that matter, shut down.

Supporting all those different systems was a lot of work, and from what I was told (I was working on PTC’s Windows software), and vendor support, at least in those last days of commercial Unix, didn’t do enough to alleviate the pain.

in reply to @selectric's post:

I had the opportunity to own a VAX in 2011. I didn't take it because 2011-me was a complete and utter moron who was only interested in DOS machines. I.e. I didn't know better.

If I get a VAX, chances are, I'll run NetBSD on it because I'm more interested in trying to get old silicon to do new things. But I fully sympathize with those who don't share my interest. I'm angry for those enthusiasts who have to jump through great lengths to use machines and software that vendors have left to rot. Through no fault of their own, those retrocomputing enthusiasts are left with machines that can only use a fraction of their true power.

Also, to be perfectly fair, even in my "use NetBSD" approach, it would take effort to utilize the full power of these old workstations via reimplementations, emulation layers, or brand new software. But the FOSS kernels and FOSS userland are a starting point.