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dante
@dante
kyn
@kyn asked:

whats ur favorite roman emperor story

GREAT QUESTION!!

My easy answer is, of course, my baby boy Julian The Apostate, who, after the christianization of Rome, had a really wacky idea to go back to the pagan stuff, and was tragically killed in a stupid battle in a stupid way before he was able to do anything about it.

Like yeah it's a bit goofy to assume he would have been able to singlehandedly turn back the clock on Roman Christianity, but it's one of the great what-ifs of the time. Even if he couldn't, he could have done something different and that's fascinating to think about.

OOOOO or Elagabalus, who as I've already goofed about in that link was a PROUD bottom in a way that made conservative Romans very uncomfortable, BUT ALSO tried to make pre-Christian Romans into a monotheistic society who worshipped only a sun god called "Sol Invictus".

But honestly that's just the tip of the iceberg with Elagabalus. He also married a Vestal Virgin, a holy woman of Roman religion, which was of course SUPER uncouth. It's possible some of the notes about his sexuality were embellished by later writers hoping to throw dirt on his name, but a lot seems hard to dispute. It's possible that he considered himself some form of non-male, rumors abounded that he referred to himself as a "queen" or the consort of his gladiator boyfriend. There's just so much with him.

OR maybe Diocletian, an emperor so famed for his expertise and bureaucratic skills that he got to RETIRE (as in, not be killed by a usurper, a very rare honor) and went to his family home to farm cabbages.

His form of government, the Tetrarchy, turned out to only last about a generation, before later years left greedy sub-emperors once again fighting over the Empire. The people of Dalmatia supposedly begged Diocletian to return to service, but in an incredible line, Diocletian was said to have replied,

If you could show the cabbage that I planted with my own hands to your emperor, he definitely wouldn't dare suggest that I replace the peace and happiness of this place with the storms of a never-satisfied greed.

Once in a generation statesman, but apparently an amazing cabbage farmer.


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in reply to @dante's post:

The Vestal Virgins were, of course, virgins, but that definition is very handwavey depending on culture so I think that IF she was, perhaps, a lesbian, and Elagabalus was... well, definitely not straight at least, this COULD be the first case in history of a Beard Marriage. Just something to think about

he and diocletian have some of the most Made Up sounding stories. Octavian getting everything in the will, playing the game of thrones for a few years, then crushing his stupid uncle Antony and then ruling the empire for a hundred years with his lowborn boyfriend is a story for the ages

Antony? i completely see that. for Octavian though? i would want someone reedy (sickly as a child) who could bring out pathos on demand. A nerd with cunning. Paul Dano, Michael Emerson...Ben Whishaw?

Paul Dano would be good, though I feel like the HBO Rome series somewhat nailed this tbh.

Max Pirkis as the reedy little dweeb kid Octavian in season 1 and then Simon Woods as the twink sociopath (but still a dweeb at core) Triumvirate-era Octavian in S2. The only thing missing was a level of obviously gay that would've unfortunately been ahead of its time for 2005

Given that Elagabalus is quoted as saying "Call me not a lord, but a lady", Cassius Dio uses feminine pronouns for her in the Latin, and later sources report an empire-wide call for a doctor able to perform a sex-change operation, I think it would actually be harder to argue she /wasn't/ a woman; retroactive accusations of effeminacy were common for unpopular emperors, but this is a level and a specificity beyond anything written about any others.

it's definitely possible. i thought it was neat that in Crusader Kings III, they also explicitly mark Elagabalus as a queen. I personally don't have much of a stake in it either way since we have no real personal writings of theirs to compare it to but I'd say it seems much MORE likely that they were some variety of trans than basically any other roman leader (that we know of)

Yeah, I personally feel strongly about it because it's a specific topic of my personal research, and seems to form a somewhat more complete picture combined with things like accounts of lower-class trans women in late antiquity. But it's just one of the hills I've chosen to plant flags in, and I can't say I'm not influenced by the emotional idea of finding someone who seems to have felt the same yearnings as me across so much time.