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ChaiaEran
@ChaiaEran

So, I've been thinking about this for a few days now, ever since the really big influx of Twitter migrants started, but the reification of Cohost as a guaranteed safe space is one that makes me a little uneasy? It's good that we're calling out toxic behaviours and attempting to refrain from them, but Cohost isn't inherently safer than any other social media site. Preserving the existing relaxed culture is a good thing that I've pushed for, but we need to keep in mind that it's not because it was here first, (if the culture on Cohost were aggressive and petty before the Twitter users came, I'd be welcoming attempts to change the culture of the site,) it's because it's healthier and more compassionate, thanks to a directed effort to make it so. This kind of safety and kindness is something that requires constant effort; acting in good faith is difficult, while acting in bad faith is easy.

It's certainly easier to act in good faith on Cohost than on Twitter, thanks to design differences and a lack of an algorithm, but I'm still a little concerned with the idea of lionizing the website as inherently good-faith. We should remain critical (as in critical thinking, not as in criticism) of every space we enter, both on- and offline. Good faith action and safety aren't just always giving the benefit of the doubt, it also involves being willing to ask pointed questions when called for. I trust @staff, because they've done a pretty good job so far, and so I'm willing, when needed, to go to bat for them against bad-faith action. But that trust is predicated on their actions; it's earned, not owed.

This turned into a bit of a ramble, but I hope I've gotten my point across? Safe spaces are not inherently so, and we need to work to keep them so.


daboross
@daboross

i think this is important

the two things i would push for in a "culture" here if there is one, given what i've seen, are:

  • intentional actions to improve the space
  • avoiding toxic positivity - don't just be happy and positive at all costs

i think i've reposted at least one post along the lines of the latter, and this touches on the former nicely


twoscooters
@twoscooters

"Safe for who?"

On the hell-slash-bird site, Alex AK and others have been pointing out that the exodus to sites like cohost and mastodon has been almost exclusively white, that the ways in which white people on cohost are talking about how friendly and safe and like "the old days" these sites feel like (ie, before thriving minority communities developed on Twitter) is concerning.

Definitionally, safe spaces are safe for a particular subset of people because no space is safe for all people. Parler is a safe space for virulent racists in a way that cohost is not and would never want to be.

I think, were I @staff, I would be asking myself why it seems like certain kinds of people are signing up on cohost; whether there are people and communities I would like to see on cohost who are not signing up; and I would do targeted outreach to key people in those communities to discuss their needs in the attempt to fill them.

Creating culture is about so much more than policing what isn't allowed— it's also about seeding and actively cultivating what is desired. And the earlier that work happens, the larger the eventual dividends.

Thirty thousand people are currently waiting in the wings to join cohost. Interest in joining is only going to increase. The window to deliberately seed culture is rapidly closing; eventually policing is the only tool that will be left.


kukkurovaca
@kukkurovaca

On the hell-slash-bird site, Alex AK and others have been pointing out that the exodus to sites like cohost and mastodon has been almost exclusively white, that the ways in which white people on cohost are talking about how friendly and safe and like "the old days" these sites feel like (ie, before thriving minority communities developed on Twitter) is concerning.

Definitionally, safe spaces are safe for a particular subset of people because no space is safe for all people. Parler is a safe space for virulent racists in a way that cohost is not and would never want to be.

This is super important. The biggest reason that I've had a super hard time with Mastodon is that the dominant culture there is painfully white1, and that whiteness informs a lot of low-key and not-so-low-key toxic stuff around how people are expected to behave, and policed for misbehaving.

Some white people I know from twitter also act a lot more painfully white on Mastodon, because they've found their community where they can really let their caucasian flag fly, I guess.

This is an area where the lack of discoverability in spaces like Mastodon and Cohost -- which I know is a feature -- can also create problems by preventing members of minority communities from easily finding one another due to the need to either already know the people you're going to follow or else find/by found through deliberate exposure using hashtags. This can reinforce the dominant culture/identities and increase the comfort of the majority at the expense of the minority.

Similarly, the ease with which one can filter out the content one doesn't want to see without drama is a feature but that combined with the lack of global search can make it easy for people with difficult things to say to be functionally shadowbanned by the nice white people who just don't want their vibes harshed.

This makes it important, I think, for @staff to encourage features that provide alternative means of discoverability not just for general purposes but specifically for supporting communities of marginalized people within the user base, making it easier for those folks to find each other and also amplifying their voices without exposing them to harassment. That's a hard line to walk, and I don't know what the best solutions are. The proposed webring functionality might help here? Or (consensually) featuring/promoting certain users. And potentially @staff reflecting on their own demographs as well in the hiring process since they have a position open...

Also it's useful to remember that when we talk about making spaces unsafe for nazis and terfs because that is a prerequisite to making it safe for anybody else, we also have to consider that even entirely benign allies actually should feel uncomfortable some of the time if the space is to be made safe for the marginalized. Being decentered is uncomfortable.


  1. There's also a class dimension here, with the user base skewing to techy folks from middle/upper class backgrounds. (And important to distinguish here between people whose background is poor/working class vs. people from middle/upper class backgrounds who happen to be broke, although broke people of any background experience deprivation.)


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in reply to @ChaiaEran's post:

I would put it: safety isn't a property of spaces, or of people, of even of communities, it's a property of behaviours. People's feeling of safety on the site is always a matter of how the community is behaving now, (as well as its recent track record); there's no resting on our laurels.

good, important stuff to be talking about. one thing about "safety" when we're not talking about the most fundamental, purely physical definitions is that it depends on shared sense of norms and values. there are some topics and modes of behavior that consenting adults engage in and consider safe, even safety-affirming (because they feel free and comfortable enough) that other adults find inherently unsafe. how do you square those differences in norms? content warnings as a deep, platform-level feature are obviously a great tool for that particular case, but there are no silver bullets for these questions.

ultimately it's up to the site's owners and all of us using it to collectively shape those shared norms and values, reiteratively, forever - "working to keep them so" as you put it. i signed up here last june largely because i trusted the ASSC folks and liked what people were posting and the general vibe, and i've continued to do so as it's grown.

and yeah i think "good faith engagement is the default" is a shared value that this site currently has that twitter very much doesn't. and i think the main difference is that twitter, as a capitalist enterprise that wants only to grow and profit infinitely and harvest ever more data etc etc, never wanted to be seen as having values of its own, because it might be forced to stand by those values in a way that loses it money. ASSC has a major leg up in that regard because they're not trying to scale to 1 billion users or whatever.

Thank you for putting into words something that I have struggled to: "there are some [...] modes of behavior that consenting adults [...] consider safe, even safety-affirming, that other adults find inherently unsafe".
It's kinda like the issue where making something accessible for one group makes the same thing inaccessible for another. I can't think of any good examples rn but a contrived example is that the tactile pavement bumps for vision-impaired folks could be a trip hazard for someone on roller-blades.

Mastodon is having this same discourse right now, partly because a lot of the existing pre-Twitter-Migration userbase are techno-optimists who are absolutely convinced that Mastodon's design and existing community norms inherently deflect and dispel abuse, and they're currently getting Eternal Novembered

in reply to @daboross's post:

I think ultimately that there will be some level of toxic subcultures present on cohost, but without a global feed people will be better equipped to maintain more healthy subcultures among their friends and tags.

in reply to @twoscooters's post:

Extremely good and important points about who, exactly, Cohost is safe for, and who it should be safe for. I think some of the reminiscing about the old days is based at least in part on the lack of predatory algorithms, but there is an almost reactionary valourizing of the old days that risks glossing over the issues the old Web had, especially the barring of minority communities.

One thing that's worried me is that initial positivity toward a Good Site invariably gives way to griping about how it used to be good and now it's bad around the time large numbers of people come in and there is the slightest friction. This easily becomes a self-fulfilling thing where suddenly it's not cool to like the site or be invested in it or think it can last, which breeds cynicism and disillusionment. I think it's sort of the mirror companion to toxic positivity: I thought things would finally be good here, and my earnest hopes were betrayed, so it's ruined now.

It's very easy for people to fall into this after seeing one (1) thing that truly annoys them or makes them feel uncomfortable. Given that white people as a group often react very strongly to interpersonal friction and feeling uncomfortable, it's also easy for this to follow the first few instances of us needing to be told that our behavior is unacceptable and hurtful. It's not even necessarily going to come from the badly-behaved element, because expressing disappointment as, "I thought this place was different" is pretty normal. But it would absolutely suck to do this after people who need a platform and an online home decide to put in the work needed to build here, and for it suddenly to become uncool to help with building because feelings got hurt after they expressed their needs.

This symptom of Posting has happened over and over. Pretty much every site Cohost makes people of a certain age nostalgic for was considered a drama-soaked pit of hell vipers in its glory days by vocal, influential members of its userbase. Twitter's flameout is so catastrophic that it's currently speedrunning the nostalgia arc, although I believe a lot of users are also just now realizing how many people are on Twitter because it's how they make a living. I don't think we can afford to lose sight of that if we want to offer some kind of security and community; those of us who take that seriously have to make a choice to not decide this is a lost cause after it leaves the narrow band of space and time in which any new thing gives everyone the warm fuzzies.

I'm guilty of having wished that sites like Tumblr and Twitter would die and be replaced by something better; this is an entirely passive thought process in which abstract death and birth are as far outside my sphere of influence as they are in reality. Tumblr banned porn and Twitter got sold and now the potential "something better" is a site where I can make a suggestion and find out it's been implemented a week later. I saw someone on Twitter cite a change I made arguments in favor of (which I stand by) as a reason they didn't didn't want to make an account. It would be pretty fucked up if I acted like I was powerless here.

Agree with the exodus from Twitter being primarily white. But I've been on Twitter since 2009. Back in the day the site was shaped mostly by black people. Things got bad after gamergate, the exodus from tumblr, and the 2016 US presidential election. It was a much different site in the early days and the culture was driven by poc (think occupy wallstreet, arab spring, etc)

in reply to @kukkurovaca's post:

This was incredibly well put!!! I'm really hoping I can find people like me on here to be able to talk and communicate with. I think I'm going to make it clear I'm BIPOC on my profile and at the very least put out a chost to try to see if I can make that connection with others.