lexyeevee

troublesome fox girl

hello i like to make video games and stuff and also have a good time on the computer. look @ my pinned for some of the video games and things. sometimes i am horny on @squishfox



botw is a game about exploring and scrounging, and totk even moreso, and one of the big things you scrounge for is weapons. and like half of the game is built around this. if weapons didn't break readily then you'd just carry around Good Sword until you found Gooder Sword and then just carry that around instead

(incidentally, one of the reasons i actively like weapon durability is that i had this as a specific complaint about many previous zelda games — the item upgrade curve has this awkward pacing where you get the coolest stuff at the end of the game where you won't really have anywhere left to use it, but if you manage to get cool stuff earlier then the whole game is a breeze because now you have it forever)

breakable weapons mean no weapon is forever, so you can be excited more than once when you run across something unusual or quirky — i will, after all, always want another fire sword. breakable weapons mean you want to carry spares, so there's a compelling reason to need more inventory space, so there's a point to finding koroks. breakable weapons mean that it's mechanically interesting that enemies drop their own weapons. breakable weapons give you a reason to revisit areas where you know good weapons are available, rather than the typical rpg thing where you go through part of the world and then it's basically empty lifeless. breakable weapons turn melee combat into one of several viable combat options with a clear drawback, rather than just the obvious thing you do by default every time

in a less well-designed game, it would be very bad to feel like i'm constantly on the verge of becoming helpless. but Sharp Things are abundant, Good Sharp Things are only a little bit out of the way once you learn where they are, and there are generally still half a dozen other things you could do besides charge in waving a sword around. weapon durability is a very clever bridge between exploration and combat that makes the two feed neatly into one another, and that's not an easy feat


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in reply to @lexyeevee's post:

i really, really hate the school of design which says "anything which inconveniences the player or puts friction on their experience is bad design" and as a result i love weapon durability

thinking that the primary purpose of video games is power fantasy is Poison

it doesn't even add very much friction, so i don't understand why people have a big problem with it (and i'm the kind of person who will never use potions because i might need them later). like you are showered in weapons constantly. i don't know what you could possibly be doing that could put you at risk of running out of weapons. if you just run around you find weapons. if you just do shrines you're given weapons. if you do nothing but combat everyone drops weapons. at no point should you ever need to like farm for weapons; the game is balanced so you can make decisions and appreciate finding good items, not feel desperate

yeahh, the way i see it, there are a few choices when it comes to designing a weapon system for an open-world game, including, but not limited to:

  • weapons are scarce, persistent, and follow some progression-gated system

  • weapons are plentiful but fragile, with a variety of contextual playstyles represented

  • weapons are plentiful but persistent, and follow a steep power curve so you want to throw old ones away (think diablo or looter shooters)

and i think that botw (and i assume totk has a similar durability system though idk and i don't want to know till i get it) manages to land at a combination of the latter two here that works well: there is a power curve represented in weapons, but those weapons break, but you can always get more with a little effort and a little return to an old area on the next blood moon

Right - the first one is "weapons are plot". So the only reason you "find" a weapon is because the game designer has given it to you as a reward to further the plot. It's a McGuffin, not a weapon. I'm not saying this is a bad thing - this is every Metroidvania ever, after all. But it's not clear why people think its absence means a game is such a tragedy. There will be other McGuffins...

I disagree, hehe, buf I understand. I very much prefer becoming stronker forever and teh only thing I liked collecting in Zelda of teh Bread was armor and health/stamina. All weapons jusf felt like useless trinkets, of no consequence. It was not part of my character, it was not my power, it was just like, a strength potion fur my hands.

Conversely, I don'f really care if there's not much use for teh Golden Sword other than walking around wiff it then fighting Gannon, what matters is that I am more powerful, strictly, and thaf feels good, hehe. There's a reason why when I play Zelda randomizers I almosf always go fur 100% item completion, meowf, I just like having Stuff, and having that Stuff being an extension of me.

breakable weapons turn melee combat into one of several viable combat options with a clear drawback

I hear this a lof where breakable weapons force u to bee creative, etc. In my experience it forces me to do Annoying Things That I Don't Like until I get teh weapons that I like again. I like teh bow and the small swords and that's it.

I understand, tho, meowf, differenf strokes fur differenf creaturs. I always, for example, hear people talking aboot what a bad design decision it is to add meta-progression to rogue-lites (it makes multiple runs obligatory, you can't win by skill alone, etc) but I can'f stand rogue-lites without meta-progression, hehe. Teh main reason I play a (longer) game is to build a character as I play, if I can'f it's pointless, so a weapon thaf breaks is useless to me.

Yeah same, especially regarding weapon preference and trying to build a character.
Conceptually I like the idea of adaptability and scavenging, but I (1) want stuff more like "oh no this enemy knocked my lance down this tower and I need to grab their buddy's weapon" or "this cheap knife broke on this new enemy's tough scales and I need to scrounge a way to take them out quick" (2) want to gradually grow out of that stage into acquiring lasting things I prefer.

It should be a journey where the weapons you move between and why create an interesting story.

i guess watching the weapon curve develop over the course of the game made me feel like i had earned the weapons i was holding, that i had clawed my way to them. because they were there the whole time, locked behind nothing but my knowledge of the world and my ability to get to them (unlike other games where they'd be part of an elaborate series of plot progression). and i never had to downgrade on weapons really, because i was using my better weapons to fight bigger enemies who would then drop better weapons themselves. so it was like a recurring loop of proving that i was worthy of the Real Big Swords, and that felt meaningful to me in a way that doing the golden sword sidequest didn't. it's not simply that the little guy on the screen got a bigger number; it's that i gained a better understanding of the game. i could go snag royal stuff right at the beginning if i wanted to, now, and the only drawback is that i'd have to do it again later because new big swords won't drop off monsters in early parts of the game

and it's not that i think breakable weapons force you to be creative. more that if you always have a real good sword and there's no reason not to use it, then... there's no reason not to use it. so everything else becomes a secondary gimmick. if your real good sword will only last so long (and the little crowd of guys you're fighting don't have as good a sword to replace it), then other approaches become a little more appealing. that doesn't necessarily mean constructing a rube goldberg machine; it might mean "just don't fight these wimpy guys then", or "reserve a slot for a chump weapon to use on chumps", or maybe something a little counterintuitive like "use an attack up potion here so it takes fewer hits to beat them"

but if you have the best sword permanently then you can just go around hitting everything with your best sword and half the game doesn't matter

I understandf. Tbh I also had thaf a littel bit, where I had a increasingly stronger rotation of weapons, and I was able to eventually keep a beffer grip on teh ones I liked cuz I knew where to get them, but it still wasn't as cool as jusf Having teh weapons, meowf. It felt to me like character progression wiff extra-steps, hehe, not really nice at all.

I personally shee me andf teh littel guy on the screen as one. I like restarting games fwom zero and just gathering all my stuff again/getting back to level 99 cuz I also feel like I am getting stronger all over again, nyeh, even tho I still have all teh knowledge and skill. I guess I don'f really value skill that much, tbh. Like I enjoy speedrunning metroid but I am still having more fun at teh endgame when I am overpowered then when I am doink teh harder tricks at teh start, meowf.

and it's not that i think breakable [...]

None of these things sound as fun as beating a bunch of littel guys with a really good sword, hehe. I mean, I appreciate a game thaf encourages variety, it sounds vee laudable andf many people do enjoy being clever in their games, buf fur me personally, it is Annoying.

Edit: Also, jusf to be clear, I am not against varied/clever gameplay, hehe, I jusf don't like choices being made inconvenient. I can appreciate teh attempt to guide players to get ouf of their comfort zone and mayb find strategies they like more buf teh thing of course, is that if they didn't like teh other styles of play, they still are going to keep being pushed into them forever because durability is a constant mechanic, myeh.

but if you have the best sword permanently then you can just go around hitting everything with your best sword and half the game doesn't matter

Perfect, that's exactly how I like it, myeh. I already beat all of them with the weaker weapons anyway, didn't I? I hav conquered these smaller challenges, so let me focus on harder challenges by ranking me up. I don'f really wanna think of teh strategies to beat teh low-level enemies each time I encounter them late in teh game, I just wanna walk into them like Ness walks into a CoilSnake

(fur teh record, I do appreciate your perspective a lof and it has made me wanf to revisit breaf of teh wilf. Eevee is a mew mew so I hop I didn'f express my own perspective in a way that wasn'f warranfed, meowf)

It might bee a while befur I get Belda TikTok since console games are wey more expensive here, buf I do believ I will enjoy it, hehe. I do enjoy Bottle despite my complaints, I liked exploring, gathering stoof and questing andf finding shrines (not so much actually doing them, hehe), and all teh many stoofs u can do. So it would bee fun doing anoffer run soon, hehe.

*places a meow on eevee*

I'm okay with the idea conceptually and can think of ways I'd really like it, but I didn't enjoy the execution in BotW at all. ToTK is doing a much better job with the fusion system and properly framing everything as disposable resources, given what I've played so far, but I'm not yet enthusiastic about it. That might change the more interesting things I find to stick on weapons and how much it varies from location to location.

breakable weapons mean you want to carry spares, so there's a compelling reason to need more inventory space, so there's a point to finding koroks.

As they've existed, both inventory and koroks are honestly just exhausting to me. I'd prefer much fewer, more engaging ways to get chunks of inventory at a time, if at all. Slapping the little guys on contraptions is at least a bit more entertaining to me than BotW so far, but I'm also still very early into the game.

do you want to be playing a big exploration game?

i guess that's what confuses me the most about this — the game is about running around a big world and poking at things, and even the combat is designed to encourage and reward this. but if you don't like finding koroks squirreled away and you don't like juggling the stuff you find lying around, then... what are you hoping to get out of running around a big world and poking at things?

That's a good question!

I think I do. Maybe. I want to run around and poke at things, but I guess I want them to poke back more? I want to fuck around and find out, not so much fiddle around with things that don't have much agency. I want a cool enemy to more actively force me into a new weapon or strategy rather than just have my weapon shatter by entropy. I want a korok I find to climb into my inventory and REFUSE TO ELABORATE until I happen upon a stable and they tell me something scary about the area we left.

I also want the things I poke to feel a bit more meaningful? I have to play through 4 slowly paced shrines that are mostly disconnected experiences from the world that only reward me with one (1) heart or one fifth (0.2) an already paltry stamina wheel. The stamina probably annoys me more, as I'd like to just feel more free running around the world and have horrible things put me in my place accordingly.

I guess the BotW style often feels like a very modestly paced, massive toy box rather than an a big cohesive adventure to me.

fwiw there is certainly more enemy variety and combat pressure in totk already, and i'm not especially far in, and it is giving me pause about what kind of weapons i should be carrying around

doing a little side puzzle to get a quarter of a heart container is fairly standard zelda affair though? the main difference here is that they put the puzzles in little glowing buildings. it does take a while to build up the stamina wheel but that's more to add pressure to climbing, i think — your run speed doesn't matter so much for crossing large distances when you can just get, like. a horse

i guess that's the thing though — what is a big exploration game that also feels like a cohesive adventure? if you can't get sidetracked on stuff that doesn't really matter, then it's not much of an exploration game. if the things you find are individually massive upgrades, then you can only explore for so long before you're basically endgame.

i guess to me it feels like an unscripted adventure. almost anything you do will make some kind of progress, even if it's just more resources. stuff off the beaten path will give you smaller increments of progress, but there's a lot of it so it adds up. if you really want to make big leaps then you can go do a boss and get a whole heart container plus some kind of superpower, with the main drawback being that you won't have as many hearts overall so you'd better be a fairly solid player.

but if you want something more cinematic and deliberate then i guess some 70% of the game is empty space

Certainly. It helps that enemies get some funky fusion weapons to play with, although it's still not at the level of variety and pressure I'm looking for. I'm hoping it picks up over time.

doing a little side puzzle to get a quarter of a heart container is fairly standard zelda affair though?

Yeah, this has almost always annoyed me about Zelda and games that take after it lol. It just feels worse because of the pacing of shrines and such.

I don't necessarily mind small rewards depending on the balance of the whole experience, but I like to receive them upfront. Not being able to use any of my heart pieces until I have 4 doesn't make an individual puzzle feel rewarding to me. In fact, it adds pressure to quickly do more puzzles and complete the set, which would work better for an interesting reward at the end, not a single heart.

your run speed doesn't matter so much for crossing large distances when you can just get, like. a horse

I'm not really a fan of relying on horses, because, aside from not fitting into all scenarios, I feel like I have to babysit them. I'm extremely silly so I feel guilty if just use horses as tools and drop them off anywhere randomly, wandering far away until I need them again. I need to put them somewhere safe and comfy and bring them back to a stable when I need to go somewhere dangerous for a prolonged period of time. :host-cry:

Also long distances are one thing, but not being able to run several yards without waiting on a cooldown just doesn't feel to me like a fun or immersive baseline to balance around. Limiting the climbing or gliding more strictly makes sense, but I'd rather running be more flexible.

i guess that's the thing though — what is a big exploration game that also feels like a cohesive adventure?
i guess to me it feels like an unscripted adventure

I think what I'm seeking leans towards unscripted adventure, too. When I say cohesive I more so mean that side affairs don't feel... isolate? I don't need everything I find to be a massive reward, so much as I want the world to do things to me when I venture around off the beaten path and for any puzzles feel a little more grounded in the world.

(I'm not communicating everything here properly, but I don't want to go on for too long rn. We're going up against the side wall and I have to leave the house soon :eggbug-pensive:)

Honestly, I really need to work on something to explore my feelings about this and see how sensible it is. I'll get there eventually I hope.

I enjoyed this talk btw

The framing didn't really help in BotW. Most weapons were pristine and you'd get very significant, historically important weapons as rewards that just... break? It also takes a lot mechanical effort to make them work as purely disposable too, imo. TotK framing everything as decayed and littering the place with resources for fusion at least makes the concept viable to me.

Gameplay doesn't really change depending on how much health you hav, meowf. Each heart of health is also interchangeable between each other (fungible hearts?). Also, health loss feels temporary due to presentation; if say, insteadf of teh current system in Bread, we had unique weapons that would become temporarily unusable when broken until restored thru some repeatable process, I am sur people would feel differently aboot it, even tho it could be implemented in a very mechanically similar way.

i mean, there not being any real added friction to it beyond the extra menuing is kinda why i don't like it lol. like i think there is a sweet spot with this sort of mechanic where you aren't really in danger of running out of appropriately powered weapons as long as you aren't doing anything too stupid but you do still feel pressured by it and so new, strong weapons are exciting to get. and i never really felt this pressure in botw so there was no excitement for me either

you mention health downthread as another resource that needs to be replenished and like, yeah. bad things happen if you run out of that and you feel compelled to not have that happen. the same could be true of weapons but i just don't think the game is tuned to make me feel that way

i think the problem is that that sweet spot is basically impossible to hit, because if a seasoned player feels solid pressure, then a moderately less competent player will consistently run out of weapons.

and running out of weapons once is okay because you can go recover, but if it's just how the game is all the time... that would be exhausting and feel constantly desperate. it might actually be worse than running out of hearts, because that just means pressing A and reloading an autosave and essentially going back in time 90 seconds.

botw even demonstrates this with master mode — the first thing you want to do is approach it like the base game, by running around killing everything, but you swiftly discover that you burn through a whole pile of branches without accomplishing anything and now you have A Problem. which is okay if you're doing the DLC bonus expert mode for a game you've already played thoroughly and where you already know all the alternative stuff you can try, but would be very bad for the base game itself

on the other hand botw has a lot of micro-upgrades that could function as self-imposed restrictions, so i wonder if there'd be more pressure if like, you decided you were never going to turn in korok seeds

I've been playing master mode without having played much of the original and holy shit you cannot just run in and fight enemies. even the three bokoblin fight to rescue the korok seed upgrade guy I had to strategize (run up some nearby rocks, spam bombs until two of them fell off the cliff, then i fell down so I had to actually fight the last one). i had to burn through tw bomb arrows just to kill a moblin!

i wouldn't want this to be the default but I'm honestly enjoying this way more than my 5-6 hours in default mode

lmao yeah they absolutely knew what they were doing when they designed it. it feels like "this is what the game could've been, if we were all dicks". i didn't get very far because i tried it right after finishing the base game and that's a tad exhausting, but i can see going back and fucking around with it later

also while trying to find out if TotK has a master mode Google served me like 5 garbage clickbait articles that just copy-paste a description of BotW's and then say "btw TotK doesn't have this yet but probably will". remember when Google was good

it's worse because the first result says that TotK has a master mode, copy pastes BotW's master mode description changing the name, and then says "TotK doesn't have this yet but they'll probably add it". actively incorrect information. first result. garbage

using "TotK" instead of "tears of the kingdom" produces better results, maybe because that's more likely to get you actual people talking about it

i think the thing i discovered playing botw is that... i don't actually want to play that kind of game! and that's fine, and i suspect a lot of other people would be happier if they realized that too.
i've started looking elsewhere for games in the style of older zelda titles.

But.... in all likelihood, i would have drifted away from the series anyway. My taste in games has changed significantly since i was a Literal Child, even if that style of gameplay is still broadly one of my favourites.

i totally agree! i think some people just have RPG Brain, or Permanent Progression Obsession, or whatever you want to call it. growing a permanently powerful character and collecting permanently strong equipment and watching numbers go up (that will never go back down) are the most important things to them and they're going to complain about anything that goes against this, even if it results in more interesting decision making and better balanced combat that lets you play with a wider variety of weapons.

the only way to avoid those kinds of complaints, as far as i'm aware, is to make the type of game that those people wouldn't consider playing in the first place. i didn't see many people complaining about having to throw away their weapons in super crate box, for example. that said, it gets harder and harder to do this as players come to expect permanent progression in more and more genres of games; i honestly believe that if spelunky 1 was released today, lots of people would complain that your character doesn't permanently get stronger every time you play it.

so in nintendo's case, i honestly don't know what they could have done. even if the game was reskinned to have nothing to do with zelda, it has enough character progression that it's going to attract the kinds of people who make those complaints regardless. it sucks

Yeah weapon durability is important to botw! I don't really like how they made it so much more inconvenient in totk though, by making the fuse mechanic necessary for every weapon you pick up

weapon durability in botw is annoying but ultimately acceptable, though the fact that there is no real indication of durability beyond "it is going to break in the next one/two hits" sucks. you can tell me the exact attack number. give me some more information, maybe.

now, if you said that equipment durability in, say, animal crossing: new horizons was actually good, then we'd have a real argument.