lexyeevee

troublesome fox girl

hello i like to make video games and stuff and also have a good time on the computer. look @ my pinned for some of the video games and things. sometimes i am horny on @squishfox



josephgribbin
@josephgribbin

One of my least favourite tropes in modern games is when the story has your character doing interesting dramatic things, and then the gameplay has the player doing tedious busywork. The player does stuff like picking up ladders and putting them down, shooting stuff until it breaks, climbing ropes etc. and this pads out just enough time until the story can get going again. What's supposed to hold the players attention are character beats and narrative tension, but what the player is doing moment to moment isn't exciting and largely doesn't matter.


georgio
@georgio

Reading this great takedown of ladder-centric level design and looking at the experience goals for Uncharted is giving me whiplash!

If 50~60% of what I’m doing in the Uncharted games isn’t hitting their most important goal, it seems like the designers failed to achieve it? At what point in each of these games’ production did environmental puzzle fluff overtake the intended experience? Is this a by-product of prestige games needing to be super long for whatever reason?


hellojed
@hellojed

I made this post on a comment to someone else complaining about how Power Wash simulator has a overly long and complicated progression design because the game needs to be "longer" to justify it's retail price, since steam users wrongly equate time spent in a game to value.

One of these days I'm going to have to really write about the disconnect between AAA game designers and player experiences. I feel like I should have more cogent thoughts having worked on 3 AAA games, but what I've noticed is:

  • AAA Designers only pay attention to AAA games from the last 5 years with a metacritic score above 80. (This was specifically called out in a GDC talk from another designer who said this is what a AAA designer has to play to remain current, everything else is irrelevant)

  • AAA designers Don't play many games in general. Hell, I don't really. When I shipped the last game all I had time for was to go to bed after work and maybe play some Quake here and there.

  • AAA designers often work in a single genre and then are stuck there indefinitely. For instance: if you work on a 3rd person action title, you won't get hired to work on an FPS. If you mainly work in FPS games, but apply to work on a game in a genre you play a lot (such as fighting games) you won't get the job, because they want "fighting game design" experience or whatever the fuck that means.

So as a result of this the people who do get to make the big decisions are driven by the circular and insular culture of AAA design, of which there's probably a baker's dozen of lead designers actually making the big decisions, most of which copy from the last 5 years. Games are so expensive to make because there's thousands of artists and developers involved across multiple studios, so you can't afford to try anything new, ever. Innovation happens only when a mod gets hyper popular (MOBAS, Battle Royale, etc) and can be copied.

With no time to make new "gameplay" the only way these games justify their massive budgets is through increasingly high production quality. It now takes an entire studio to make one or two levels of something. The levels are so expensive to make that branching paths are out of the question, lest the player miss a hallway that cost $100k or more to art out.

So now we're finally at the point where you carry ladders around and boxes, because if you suggest the player do something besides "Kill" the blinkered AAA designer will go "well, what does the player do?"


You must log in to comment.

in reply to @josephgribbin's post:

I recently decided to try out The Last Of Us for the first time and I was surprised it's such a popular game given just how... boring it is. I'm like an hour or two in and I haven't had a moment of fun. The only interesting stuff that's happened so far was in the intro sequence, and it certainly wasn't during actual gameplay.

I'm very confused by the love for this game. It's not even particularly interesting writing so far. Feels like Sons of Anarchy level writing with Joss Whedon style quips thrown in?

Great analysis of why designers might have ended up here, but I definitely agree... it's boring. You can make mundane things fun, but walking around picking things up and putting them down with zero thought sure isn't it.

Completely agree with this.

I remember playing one of the Uncharted games, I assume the first, and while in an underground cave or crypt or catacomb we discovered an ancient slot machine made of huge, engraved wheels. A puzzle! But before getting a chance to interact I was told to press select to open up daddy’s Prima Games guide, and just copy the symbols across while people bark at each other.

It basically had nothing that would make it a satisfying puzzle. And while going through the motions I had feelings of quota's being met. A spreadsheet cells conditional formatting turning green. We need murdering, climbing, puzzling, and forced to walk slowly while people talk…ing, so we're doing this now.

in reply to @georgio's post:

I think it was Uncharted 4 where they just had an unbelievably high number of "puzzles" that involved moving these crates with caster wheels on them so you could climb them in the right position. They would also be in places where they should not be as well.

in reply to @hellojed's post:

This post hits like a truck. A few years ago, I was working on a generic AAA third person Destiny clone. (It got canceled, don't worry about it.) Anyway, I was talking to a Junior Game Designer about Risk of Rain 2, specifically how it does many interesting things with combat. He pondered it for a moment, and then said something I will never forget: Oh, I don't play games in Early Access.

I'm not doubting it, but that does get me wondering how the AAA industry seemed to converge on 'taking the cool stuff from Minecraft like crafting and base building and making them a lot less interesting' over the past five years or so - Putting base building into Fallout, crafting into... Basically every AAA game under the sun especially when it doesn't fit, and so forth.

And I say this as someone who doesn't get on with Minecraft (I just suffer from Blank Canvas syndrome when playing it - Dragon Quest Builders with explicit missions is far more my speed as far as the voxel-builder genre goes - Give me specific needs I need to build to fulfil rather than placing me in the middle of nowhere and tell me to build whatever I imagine is far more my speed. I wish DQB was a bit more open at times but I get on with the gameplay loop of them better when they're too closed than too open)

Minecraft's popularity was certainly a part of that, yeah. Sometimes a designer will go "well, X game had crafting in it, so we need crafting". I've had designers tell me my side project game needs crafting and an inventory system even though it would be so much more work. They don't think about what is in the game and whether crafting fits into the game's core loop. Partially it's a way to really pad out the game's length.

As someone that enjoyed The Last of Us, I think this whole thread puts it really well, especially jed's post. I'm a game design student and I've gotten a similar comment multiple times on my work: "play more 'normal' games."

AAA games obviously pull in a lot of people so I'm hesitant to call them "bad", but they definitely have very similar design patterns. Despite personally playing a huge variety of games (platformers, fighting games, rpgs, shooters, metroidvanias, 2D, 3D, indie, etc.), most studios will just be Not Interested in any of that knowledge unless it can be put into a realistic story-based 3D action game, to my disappointment. I have the impression that it's much much harder to get a job in the game industry unless you have a lot of experience with the "normal" AAA games.

A lot of "prestige" AAA studios want very similar experience, like I had one example where I recommend someone for a design position at a studio I was at, but the designer in charge of hiring rejected them because they worked on a 3rd person action title, and we were working on an FPS!

Keep playing weird stuff, there's more to the industry than AAA even though it doesn't feel like it sometimes.