• she/they/any

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amydentata
@amydentata

Even among cis people there's more than two genders but everybody just keeps glossing over it


Webster
@Webster

all of the cis people who would tell me i'm "not a real man" in an accusatory way would get mad at me if i agreed with them


shel
@shel

This was a big part of my experience of gender. I was a gender non-conforming kid but didn't really know you could just like, demand to be a girl and see a doctor and then you'd get to be one. So I was just like, a very effeminate boy who everyone would assume was a girl until told otherwise.

When I hit puberty, I came out as gay, and everyone was like "yeah, duh" and my gender, for all intents and purposes, was "gay boy" not "boy." There was not an abundance of gay poeple in my community. I was the only "gay boy." I was slotted into specific social roles, such as "gay best friend (GBF)" and "one of the girls" and encouraged to pursue specific interests (theater, fashion, writing, cooking, music, anime/manga with pretty boys in it) while being deterred from others (sports, leadership, STEM, video games, comic books, partying, anything involving physical contact with men). Girls treated me as innately belonging in The Girl Group, except when specific topics came up (mostly menstruation, occasionally pregnancy scares or sex) and then it would be "Ummm, can we have a girls-only moment." Meanwhile, guys did not treat me like a guy. Initially, I was bullied violently for "not being a boy" or "not being a man" and called "a girl" derisively. Once I was safely positioned The GBF within a group of girls, there came to be a social obligation to be civil towards me if they wanted to get close to the girls. Guys who I were genuinely friends with would be protective me, like they were towards girls, and would not only abstain was roughhousing with me but would interfere to prevent other guys from being rough with me, the ones who perhaps didn't yet know that I "wasn't one of the guys." I would rarely be invited to "guys only" social occasions like I was to "girls only" occasions, reserving me mostly for mixed gender situations. If something called for "separating the guys and girls" I would often not be placed normally, either getting sent to the girls' side, placed only with specific men who were asked first if it was OK and who would treat me differently, or even just placed on my own.

I did feel some gender dysphoria especially with the onset of puberty, and I did often have the thought "I wish I had been born a girl" but didn't think it was realistically possible to like, change that. I was pretty content in my almost-girl social role. I even had guys say shit like "I wish you were a girl so I could date but you I'm not gay" completely unprompted.

But when I went to college, where gay people were a dime a dozen, I was no longer a "gay boy" (third gender) I became a "Cis Gay Man" (despicable and much despised subset of Men) and the way the dysphoria was... it was like I caught on fire. Like only now was I living life as a "man" and having expectations of masculinity placed upon me. All of my gender nonconforming behaviors were now scrutinized as "appropriating femininity" "annoying" "attention-seeking" "overly soft" "trying to be special" etc. etc. and many of my behaviors now took on a totally different flavor. "Entertaining the girls" became "taking up too much space As A Man." Hanging out with female friends became "invading female spaces." My experiences of homophobia and violence for being gender non-conforming and queer were now downplayed and treated skeptically as "Cis Gay Men have it the easiest and everyone loves them." It was all completely novel to me. It was like I had been newly reassigned to a gender with entirely different expectations. And while previously I had been viewed as basically an asexual being, I was now having my body scrutinized and classified in new ways. I was fucking immolated with gender dysphoria. After four month of that I pretty quickly concluded I was not a man did not want to be a man could not stand it did not want it and it was time to transition ASAP. Interestingly, during the earlier years of my transition, the people who criticized me for being "A Cis Gay Man who Has It Easy" all kept insisting I "wasn't really transgender" and was "really a gay man appropriating the trans experience." My assigned gender that I was transgressing by transitioning wasn't actually Man, but Gay Man.

If you watch media depictions of gay people, especially pre-2015, it's pretty clear that "effeminate gay men" were not considered a type of man for a very long time. Queer Eye For The Straight Guy did not star five men, it started five Gaymen. five dandies. Five faggots. The same goes for butch lesbians

Not to mention how gender is racialized and the idealized conceptions of European womanhood are basically never made available to the average Black Woman, who is depicted and perceived as masculine and aggressive no matter how she behaves. Even though our culture says "there are two genders" it is in fact the case that every intersection of gender and race has a completely different manifestation, depiction, and expectation in this culture.


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in reply to @amydentata's post:

in reply to @Webster's post:

in reply to @shel's post:

It’s wild because as a trans man, cis people don’t know what my deal is and tend to perceive me as Real Man (just to be sure) but usually quickly start perceiving me in this “gay” group. 😅 It’s wild because if I tell them I’m a trans man their wheels start spinning like “……..should I keep treating you like you’re a Sex-less Gay or switch to treating you as a Sex-less Butch Lesbian” even if they’re progressive and gender me right or whatever, I’m still a weird “gay other.” Nobody knows I’m straight 🥲 (These thoughts are based on lots of panicked inferences of a relatively small sample of people, I may change my mind about how classify these interactions in the future lol.)

Edit to add: Basically, I really resonated with your description of how cis people treat “gay” as a gender. I think it’s really true and I think that cis people are so oblivious to how they move through the world classifying people in shifting genders.

I've been fat my entire life so growing up the expectations of the Fatboy are comics, videogames, stem, computers ect. then i came out as gay in highschool I was pushed into theater, cooking, interior design, girls nights and pastel colors. The hollywood twink is an archetype that i didnt fit neatly into in 2015. at 18 I very quickly found my identity in furry spaces as "Bear" the Fatboy sub-genre of Gayman.

As a hairy 6 ft man dressed like their grandpa the traditional crowd irl doesnt really know where to put me in their own gender expression categories. I'll still let my niece do my makeup but its more for her than it is for me.

I'm very curious when that was, that feels like the sort of thing the tumblr kids might have said twenty years after I graduated from college, if the tumblr kids had even thought about cis gay men at all, which I'm not sure I really saw in my tumblr days. I knew a couple lesbians when I was in college but it's not like anyone was going to actually tell me anything about anything so I don't know what people were saying.

100% agree with all of this and also it's one of my favorite (??) types of things to bring up to people as a little bit of Gender Studies 101 to well-meaning-but-dumb folks who are for the first time encountering trans/gay/gnc people. Gender is a social role that shifts based on context, culture, timeline. the malleability in a single person's experience (even under a binary gender society) shows this clearly.

It's also what fascinates me about a lot of 70s/80s conceptions of gender/sexuality as more entwined than our more modern (post/third-wave feminism) idea that those are strictly split. E.g. how a lot of second wave feminisms talked about "lesbian as gender" or "trans as sexuality" or whatever. It was clunky in many ways and also a lot of those viewpoints kind of rotted into reactionaryism as time went on but like... I can see what they were getting at.

One's social role & the way that they carry themselves in their society determines a lot more than just "man or woman". One of my favorite essays ever about gender (i can't find a raw pdf at the moment but i think it's not super hard to find) talks about this through a colonialism lens, how colonialism created a system of (roughly) four 'genders' -- white man, white woman, nonwhite man, nonwhite woman. Each, of course, placed to facilitate power relations, but still -- it complicates the binary.

I hadn't thought about it that way before, but that's probably why a lot of autistic people include that in their idea of gender. I don't personally, but I'm already genderfluid, so that's enough weirdness for me.