loni

hi im loni i draw

drawings, music, games | made in chile (tm) | ENG / ESP OK


ko-fi (comms and sketches)
ko-fi.com/loniart

erica
@erica

Two weeks ago, I (accidentally) clicked into my Patreon analytics page and was kinda stunlocked by what I saw.

A quick note that "Patreon" on here means people coming from email updates, iOS/Android app notifications, or I assume just typing my patreon link and finding the post that way? Probably just the former 2.

Surely that can't be right? Fourty-nine percent of clickthroughs to my Patreon content comes from Cohost? Twitter doesn't even rank anymore??

I had a split second of being truly stunned until I remembered: I stopped linking to my stuff on Twitter because, well, Twitter's dying, right? Dead website, nobody clicks links, you have to censor P*treon and c0mmission and all that stuff, right? After a second to regain clarity I was still, like, sorta shocked cuz like... my Patreon's doing fine! My numbers haven't spiked or dropped any significant amount, it's just been keepin' on at regularly good numbers because I've been doing regularly good stuff. At least, that was my thought.

Still, I was really curious. I wanted to see where all my traffic would come from if I linked in equal amounts everywhere that I post. So for the next two weeks, the period of time measured that Patreon forces me into for measuring traffic, I linked everything and checked in to see how things were doing. I'll outline the two-week "experiment" past the jump cuz it gets a bit long but before that, here's where my numbers are after two weeks.

Here's details about how it shook out this way:


1. WHERE I POST AND HOW

When I post new art, I post to Patreon, Cohost, Twitter, Pixiv, Fanbox, Tumblr, Instagram, and Bluesky.

I generally post on all sites at the same time sequentially and I don't post at any meaningful time of day. Usually it's around 10AM PST or 4PM PST because those times lineup with "I finished a thing the night before and I'm at my desk in the morning" or "I just finished a thing and I'll post it before I wind down for the day". For this two week period, I wanted to keep to my usual posting standards which meant not really minmaxing interactions or numbers by optimizing posting schedules and all of that. If I did, the numbers would look different, I don't doubt that. But I'm not a social media manager. I'm an artist and the part where I have to think about this stuff as a "business" makes me want to die so I think about it/interact with it as little as possible.

My strategy for these two weeks was this:

  • Patreon, Cohost, Pixiv, Fanbox, Tumblr posts would be like I've always done. I post and that's it. For places like Patreon and Cohost, I check in on comments but I don't bump posts on these platforms because it's not how I use them. (Or, in Pixiv, Fanbox, and Patreon's case, you can't.)
  • Instagram would get the post and a share of the post to my Stories to direct people to the HQ/Patreon link since saying "link in bio" is useless. Nobody clicks the link in bio.
  • Twitter would get the post with a separate HQ/Patreon link in the replies, with a retweet of the original post either later that day or the next day depending. Only one, though, because I knew doing it ad-nauseam like I did previously would just favor Twitter by attrition. Or whatever the reverse of attrition is. I put the link in the replies not to dodge boogeyman speculation of link deprioritization or whatever but literally because art posts just do worse on Twitter if they have a link. It's ugly, it ruins the vibe of the post, and people ignore it as a result. People hate being sold shit on Twitter. A link makes your post look like an ad and, well, how do you feel about ads on your timeline? However, text posts would get the link in the post itself since that was its purpose. This only applied to poll/suggestion thread posts.
  • Bluesky would get the posts, art and poll/thread, with the link in them. I wouldn't follow Twitter logic because people's idea of Bluesky is "Twitter before it went to shit" so I'm gonna treat it like that. I shouldn't have to game the system on there, right?

2. MY PRE-TESTING THOUGHTS

I knew that Twitter would probably see a sharp rise because it's only logical that if I stop linking somewhere, I will obviously not get traffic from there. Whether that amounted to any kind of meaningful increase or decrease in money or traffic, I don't know. But the number would go up and anticipated that, I just didn't know to what degree. Most curiously, I wanted to see where the rest would shake out. I didn't ever link on Instagram so this would be a good experiment to see if it was worth bothering to do that there. Instagram has always felt like TikTok to me where the platform hates it when you leave, but it also has a link sticker in the stories so like... it's worth trying?

I also really wanted to see where Bluesky would shake out. I've made no secret of my absolute hatred of the place but artists have flocked there with the hopes of regaining what was lost on Twitter, an attempt I didn't need this experiment to know will be in vain, but I at least wanted to see if there was at least some kinda traction you can get there. I got a decent following from Twitter migrants and my posts do some numbers.

The real data I wanted to get was to see what data looked like at the end when I proportionally applied general audience size to it. Some sites, like Cohost and my Patreon, have far less people than Twitter, where my follower size is its largest (109k), and Instagram, where its audience size is the largest (About 2 billion active users per month).

It's worth noting that this data is also incredibly, uh, subjective? There's a few asterisks here, namely that this is all relative to my existence audience size, the type of content I make, etc. If you were to replicate this on someone who's primary audience is on Tumblr then obviously this would shake out differently. For me, I primarily exist on Twitter but spend most of my time on Cohost. I also don't have more detailed info on where specifically people are coming from, which posts get the most traffic, etc. because Patreon doesn't share that data for some reason. The graph I've been posting is the only meaningful data they give me. It's kind of absurd.

3. COUPLE OF DAYS LATER

Well, that updated in the way I thought it would. It turns out that if you stop linking on a site where most of your audience is, they'll just stop showing up huh. Most of all, I was stunned to see the immediate increase in Instagram! My audience there is a little under 30k followers which isn't small by any means but 6% in about 3 days of time is a lot! It's not a site people use to "go to" other sites/places, so that's a pretty sizeable amount of people clicking through. Cool!

Another 4 days and the numbers are settling again where I thought they would, and I am still surprised by Instagram ranking. It's not a fluke, and that's nice! Bluesky is still not ranking and at this point I'm wondering if it even has a link referrer because the site is missing so many other core features that who knows, maybe that one's also on the ATproto to-do pile.

4. TWO WEEKS LATER

This is what numbers look like after two weeks. I can't test on any other period of time because Patreon doesn't let you which is prohibitively stupid but, yknow, what isn't with them.

So there's a bunch of stuff to mull on here and I'll just do it in bullet point form because it'll be easier.

  • Pixiv and Fanbox do not rank here because they are a closed loop. Fanbox is Pixiv's Patreon equivalent and since Pixiv primarily reaches a Japanese audience, I direct them to Fanbox since they can use their banking system instead of (maybe) being able to use Patreon.
  • Instagram basically stayed at a fixed 8-10% the entire time. While Instagram's total userbase is ridiculously high, Stories are basically only seen by your following audience so getting about 3000 people to routinely click whatever link I'm posting (that also expires in 24 hours!) is great.
  • Well, Bluesky has a link referrer I guess! 1% is certainly a number. I'll give the site the credit it's due in that it has a fraction of Twitter's audience but I still managed to post enough clicks to rank here. That's not nothing. And at 3.5k followers I'd at least expect to get some traction! Bluesky also has 1.8 million users, though, which is roughly 11 times1 the user count of...
  • Cohost, which I'm surprised consistently topped the list. There are some days I didn't screencap the analytics page where Cohost and Twitter were basically neck-and-neck but it never dipped below Twitter, which was always solidly in 2nd place once I started linking things again.

5. MY THOUGHTS AFTER ALL THIS ARE

That I should be more consistently linking my shit LOL

My biggest takeaway is mostly confirming a thing I've felt on here and seen echoed by other creators which is that people on Cohost, like, actually really interact with/respond to the content posted on here. The site is intentionally designed to build your feed with stuff you genuinely care about because it's both difficult and not functional for it to be a content hose like Twitter or Instagram are. The site and its features will define the culture and Cohost has largely shaken out to be a place that while I don't think the reach is bigger than any other platform, the engagement is.

The biggest problem I have with going to "where the other people are going" re: Twitter panic migration to places like Hive, Threads, Misskey, and Bluesky is that "where people are going" doesn't also mean "where you need to be going" because More Users ≠ More Engagement. Microblogging sites like Twitter have pretty much always been shit for selling or promoting anything. It's not how people use the site. Power users (which is all that's left, basically) following thousands of accounts that are posting/retweeting constantly and anything you post has a shelf life of, at most, 40 minutes. The interaction you get on there is subject to so many factors that are out of your hands that it can feel like an unsolvable black box, one that easily creates speculative workarounds by people who luck into the right factors for success.

I, like a lot of other creators, found success on Twitter because we were lucky to be making things when the site was growing and we got to build alongside the site before its crash. There's no two ways around the reality that what we had with Twitter is irreplaceable. No website or platform will ever be Twitter ever again. No matter where you go you will have to rebuild and the result of that will be completely dependent on where you rebuild. Your results on rebuilding will just be entirely dependent on where you choose to do so. I'm personally not really interested in doing it with other already-crumbling empires.

6. THOUGHTS... 2!

I'm lacking more precise data to really scrutinize the results but I wanted to bulletpoint some other things I've interpreted off all this (and longer times being around all these platforms.)

  • I think Cohost performs so well because the post rate is slower (meaning people have a better chance to catch up on posts at the end of the day or whatever) and features like the Following/Email View page ensure people see your stuff when they want to see it. The Following View in particular I suspect is responsible for some late-night spikes I saw in traffic counts. That stuff combined with the general site culture of actually, like, reading and interacting with posts makes it so friendly to promote things. It's freeing! I can just post once and forget about it and it'll still do well because people will see it and/or find a way to see it because the site is not trying to shove more stuff down my face.

  • Tumblr is fucking useless dude. My follower count there is about 60% of what it is on Instagram but it never rated in traffic, not even once. I'll keep posting there because hey if one person clicks, yknow, but christ. Buncha non-clickers over there.

  • Instagram is still a nightmare to use. Please stop forcing me into square drawings.

  • Bluesky.... look. I think 1% is good given for how small it is compared to Twitter but it's undeniably rough for a site that's already rocketed past every other "new" social media site in active user counts. People are migrating there because it's currently less hostile than Twitter and I think people see normal-looking numbers (RTs/likes) and think it's blooming but, and I've said this a few times, to what end? Does 20, 60, 200 RTs matter if nobody clicks the thing that lets you do this for a living? Any site will work out in the end if you commit to it as your Primary Place of Posting (PPP™) but I'd at least encourage you to explore options that don't wear you down in the end, especially if you can look at the road ahead and already see it getting pretty rough. This has definitely motivated me to keep linking there but it's absolutely not changed my mind in not spending any time there.

  • Patreon-specific traffic accounting for like 15-20% of clickthroughs is... lower than I'd expect, I guess? Means a lot of folks stopped clicking those emails or turned them off. Which is fair. I also did for a bunch of people I support. Idk. Expected this to be higher.

  • So my traffic numbers shifted around but how did that shake out for, like, making money? Well, in that two week period I'm +11 on new and active Patrons, accounting for the ones I've also lost as we crossed over into a new month and some folks (predictably) opted not to renew. It's not a huge increase but it's a good uptick. My Patreon has been pretty stable for years, I'm probably in the ballpark that it will stay at for the foreseeable future, so any kind of climb like that is good!

7. CONCLUSION

bro idk just do whatever feels right for you, i'm not your mom. but for once, i do have data to support my belief that you should probably go where people will actually give a shit about your work instead of just briefly chewing it in the content mulch. ultimately, the belief i've had with twitter for years and years is that whatever clicks you were going to get at that time, no matter the site, is the clicks you were always going to get. There's almost never anything you can do to cheat the system and Get More Views other than literally manipulating people into doing so using language or imagery to entice them. This was told to me many times by people who did social media stuff for a living and it almost always bore out.

8. CITES AND STUFF

1: @vogon provided me with the info on Cohost's current (approximate) user count which is "somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000".

2: Again, really sorry I don't have more specific data from Patreon. Their analytics page is laughably bad and if I click into per-post analytics it only tells me how many likes and comments a post got which is fucking useless to me.

3: "_____ site would have performed better if you did _______" Probably! But a) the goal was to level the playing field between all sites to some degree and b) I fucking hate doing that shit. I like to draw, I don't like to mull over posts and schedule stuff for the Right Posting Times or do any of the stuff some very talented social media folks do for a living. That's never been how I run my accounts and it never will be. I encourage you to do so, though, if you think it will bump your numbers up.

4: "This doesn't prove anything." I never said it did! It just confirms my experiences and provides some context for how things can shake out if you run your accounts the same way I do.

EDIT 1: "You didn't include TikTok!" Nope! That's because I think TikTok might be the most useless place to promote or sell anything, at least for the kind of artist that I am. The way TikTok operates requires an amount of hustling that is beyond my capacity and interest level and, based on the little of it I tried to do there, was simply not worth the return. Which was 0. The platform does not allow you to link out to anything because it does not want the user to leave TikTok. I'm sure it's great for some folks, I've found it to be garbage and for the userbase/comments to be worse than Twitter.

EDIT 2: According to a comment, Tumblr's tracking/referer might be broken so it's possible it would have ranked but I have no way to verify this so if anyone has any set data/info on this I'd appreciate it.

EDIT 3: "You didn't include Threads!" lol

EDIT 4: I'd also like to address that I think this is all null and void if you primarily operate in NSFW/18+ artwork because audience behaviors differ dramatically depending on the platform with that. I don't know how Cohost shakes out in that regard but Twitter will come alive for NSFW art and sorta always has but especially now that it's one of the few heavy trafficked sites left on the internet where it's largely unregulated and allowed to be posted uncensored.

You can hmu in the comments and I'll answer what I can if you have questions or want something clarified.


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in reply to @erica's post:

I also don't have more detailed info on where specifically people are coming from, which posts get the most traffic, etc. because Patreon doesn't share that data for some reason.

webdev nerd chiming in - patreon is almost certainly getting that data from the Referer header in requests to patreon. websites like twitter and whatever can control what specifically gets put in there, but i took a quick check and most places are just leaving the browser default setting, which is to send only the origin (ie. the domain name and protocol, like https://twitter.com), and not the rest of the url (bit of a simplification, more detail here if you want). so the reason patreon isn't surfacing traffic per post is likely just because it doesn't get that information.

if you do want that info - does patreon support UTM parameters in it's analytics platform? could be a viable option if they do, just chuck the parameters in the links to patreon you post. otherwise, that might just be data you can't get, unfortunately.

I can't say since I'm not a webdev person but according to its help page, it does have a better analytics page that some users have access to but based on the imagine it's showing it just seems like a different graph readout so I don't know.

It's very possible they just simply don't collect that data which, idk, if I was building a platform where people had to optimize certain things to make a living, I'd sorta make that a priority? It's data that platforms like Gumroad and Itch offer with no sweat, at least.

Regardless of whatever other parameters they have, they necessarily would be able to track per-post analytics because the people are visiting different pages. Can’t necessarily see exactly what link got someone there, but you can still see what page they entered via.

ohhhhh wait did i misread this and get it the other way around? i thought this was talking about breakdown by source page, not by patreon post. now that i think about it, both of those kinda give the same information, bc there's usually a one-to-one link between post on a given social media platform <-> patreon post. so yea, patreon should really be able to surface that info. pretty stinky that it doesn't, that really shouldn't be that hard

cohost to me is the embodiment of "don't try to find the biggest audience; try to find your audience". users here wont 1. be here or 2. follow you unless they really care about your stuff. i've found, at least

Just gonna say I’m a bit envious since I’ve tried to get a documentary (on Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, which i spent most of 2022 on) shared around like crazy here and elsewhere all year and it just flops like a fish, each and every time i share it. So for video content I don’t think Cohost or the community is that friendly to that kind of content

Some of my writing content has done OKish if I link it here however, but I notice people who get more stuff seen are usually those who end up getting lucky with a tag that works and is picked up by those browsing it (which for me is tough to find most of the time for certain niche subjects) or have a lot of followers (and can get away with tagging mistakes)

Generally i notice my content does better via Opencritic more than here, but with me abandoning my twitter, even my occasional shares here outpaces Twitter easily. I’m hoping the site makes it easier to discover content creators soon rather than just through the shoddy tag system

I'm sorry to hear you've had mixed experiences! Like I said, this is very specific to my situation so I can't really say I vouch for this being, like, concrete data.

If I had to levy a criticism on here it'd certainly echo what you said, though. Discoverability is, I think, purposefully a bit more of an effort because it contributes to the "the stuff you see, you'll care about because you found it", but that doesn't mean it needs to be as arcane as it is in some situations. Stuff like tag association would go a long way.

oh yeah definitely; my biggest roadblock is knowing which video game tag to put when talking about gaming stuff so i just lump a bunch of em lol

much easier to do say, platform specific tags like NES or whatnot than Video Games or Video Gaming or Videogame, and i feel some sort of "official tag" for big topics would help tons.

This is really neat to see, really impressive work.
I'm not gonna name names but an artist I followed for a while announced a bit ago that they were leaving twit for good and moving to bsky so I mentioned to them that I would love to see them on cohost more and they responded with something like (I don't have the exact words because they seem to have fully deleted their twitter so the post is gone) "cohost is a joke, i'm here to run my business not to have fun" and I think it just sucks that for various reasons people don't see it as a viable platform.

really cool to hear how good cohost is for everything.

my one note is that I think tracking analytics like this are broken for tumblr. it's my main audience by several thousands and despite getting lots of notes and comments on posts linking to my comic, my site's host and itch's referral stats don't show it.

yeah i'd remembered the same which made it weird!

i just spent the last little bit testing it on a placeholder page my site and it appears that tumblr clicks show up as direct links and won't have a referrer. this is the same whether the click is from the dashboard, a tumblr.com/blog popout page or on a blog.tumblr.com page.

your alt text

For someone who doesn't like to do this kind of thing, you did the thing remarkably well! And I'm saying this as someone who's been educated in how to do good tests/experience + collect and interpret data and does this in part for a living. Obviously your mileage may vary, but, that's honestly just the way it goes. Framing the data in context is always crucial and your writeup was more mindful of that than most dry-ass science papers I've read that really suck at telling a story, acknowledging limitations, or making readers care (or some combination of the three).

Besides, all of the data driven recommendations in the world will never be more important than "do you actually want to do the thing for reasons other than big number go up". I'm willing to bet that the folks who badgered you about doing x, y, or z probably forget this a lot.

Thanks so much for writing this up! Caveats aside, it's good to see some data that seems to affirm some of the stuff Cohost is proving to be good for.

It's not all the way there yet in terms of discovery, but it's more than just a place to be when you don't care about discovery.

so incredibly relieved for the addendum bringing up tiktok. everyone has insisted that it's the place to be for music, but it has only ever appeared to be a pure black hole for content or relevance and just such a massive waste of time and i thought i was just crazy

i do think the technical side of things also helps or hurts adoption of certain kinds of creative work. bluesky offers no audio or video or embed support so it blows unless you're posting artwork which is the bulk of the posts i ever see on there. i just don't have a whole lot of faith that it will maintain its current community once they start opening up on a wider scale

thank you for posting honest numbers and your detailed evaluation and observations. it's hard to extrapolate a lot of things from Numbers, but you've managed to gleam some useful insights!

I genuinely thought I was nuts for thinking that about TikTok too but the more I used it, the more it made me think of the time Facebook admitted to gassing up video numbers and making everyone pivot to that form of content, decimating online media/journalism in the process.

I don't think TikTok is lying about numbers on their videos because some stuff I'd post there would just simply not track, but I don't think the numbers mean anything there. What difference does 3k, 30k, or 300k plays make if none of those people have a link to click to check out my stuff elsewhere?

I follow a lot of artists on Patreon, and my primary way of interacting with their work is that the Patreon app and Gmail will send me push notifications, I'll go retweet the art if it's posted there, and then like a freak I go log on to my computer to visit the post by clicking through the email link so I can see it on a bigger screen. I guess that would put me in the "Patreon" group lmao.

Love this post! Thanks for laying it all out. I've been feeling bleakly pessimistic about illustration as a career because of all the nonsense going on with tech and social media lately.

I think write-ups like this help give hope! It definitely seems like artists need to pick their strategy and drill down on it.

Some questions I thought of...

  1. How much does Pixiv/Fanbox contribute to your livelihood would you say?

  2. I feel like people all act like TikTok is the place "with the huge audience" but I'm curious if you've heard of any artist having success with clickthrough rates on there. I hate the idea of artists having to jump through tiktok hoops by appearing on camera or doing timelapse videos.

Pixiv/Fanbox is a fraction of what I make on Patreon, but it's also where I upload HQ nsfw art so it's boosted up more than most, I think. It only exports (for Westerners) through Paypal so they take a cut of each pledge, monthly transfer, and transfer to my bank account. Which sucks. But it's an OK alternative to have.

Super interesting stuff! I feel like the numbers demonstrate some great things about cohost.

When it comes Patreon email clickthroughs, I usually just see the email and then navigate to the app/website instead of opening the email and clicking through there. Maybe that’s just a me thing, but if not, it might partially explain the lower-than-expected Patreon traffic?

This is such a good write up- thank you for this! Also I have an extremely stupid question: how the hell are you finding this analytics info? This is something I’ve literally emailed Patreon about adding and they never told me it actually existed already. 🙃

Just wanted to say thanks for doing all the legwork and getting all that data! Some part of me wonders how much tagging on patreon/co-host affects things, but I doubt there's any way to really find those analytics. (I just assume no one uses hashtags on Twitter at this point lol)

It's hard to say, yeah. I tag on Patreon for sorting purposes and I tag on here pretty lightly just so people can get to the immediate thing the art is about if they're interested (i.e.: "bunny suit" but not "anime girl" or other generalized tags)

Tagging on here is the most meaningful means of discoverability so I'm sure it helps to some degree but it's hard to quantify and honestly I'm not hard pressed to find out either because part of the freedom of this place is that I think the gains from minmaxing stuff like that is probably pretty minimal.

I know that when it comes to Patreon email links, I don't have Patreon logged in on my phone, so if I'm out of the house & check my email & see one from someone, once I get home, I'll go straight to their page to see the post in full on my home computer. So yeah, I'm often visiting without going through the email links, even if do use those emails as notifications.

I have no way of knowing because Patreon won't share the data but I do wonder if that also counts as "Patreon" traffic. Either way, I'm surprised at the number of folks who've shared they do this exact thing so thanks for reassuring me that the low(er) number is mostly circumstantial in this case!

This is really helpful insight, thanks for sharing this! I've been running my Patreon for a little over a year now and I didn't even think about whether Patreon had these features hiding in the analytics page until you mentioned it. My page has been mostly focused on nsfw stuff so it very likely differs in engagement (over 70% of my traffic is coming from patreon itself with the rest listed as a nebulous "other"), but cohost still played what I felt was a big part in helping me find my footing early on, so it's nice to see more data backing up my personal estimates.

This write up is awesome! Was the push I think I needed to try dedicating a little bit more brainpower into using and building my cohost page!

When sharing the link in your replies on twitter instead of the main post, did you notice any deboosting regardless? It's something I've avoided altogether out of fear of the posts doing badly ;3;