lunarfox22

a little fox typing on a keyboard

30 | I just wanna draw comics. Unfortunately I must live in a context.



micolithe
@micolithe

I am routinely worried Mozilla is gonna surpass Google regarding bad decisions, then swap back, forever, as things just get worse and worse. At some point someone much smarter than me is gonna say enough and make a new html rendering engine.


maff
@maff

mozilla is actively killing itself. one of the best resources online for web development is mozilla developer network, a very useful reference for html, javascript and css. mozilla has been shoving openai garbage into it despite very vocal opposition and clear and repeated examples of the openai-generated shit being patently wrong and making their documentation worse as a result.

the ux for firefox seems like it gets worse with every single update (i was going to give examples but it just keeps turning into a long fucking screed because i have so many grievances with firefox), yet they keep acquiring or partnering with other companies and then merging functionality into firefox. the firefox vpn thing is literally just mullvad vpn being resold with more conventional ways of handling billing and a different client package.

"please improve the only competitor google chrome fucking has" no, but would you like a weird version of Facebook Second Life because we have that (when i was writing this i erroneously gave mozilla credit for not using the term 'mtaverse' but i went to their 'innovation' page and they have it listed as their 'mtaverse / XR' thing).
not kidding about that either, they have a clone of facebook's shitty second life clone. it even doesn't have legs, and apparently is not notable enough to even be mentioned on the "list of mozilla products" page on wikipedia.

there are other non-chrome browsers. there are other rendering engines (serenityos' libweb/ladybird, webkit is still real, servo keeps threatening to exist but so far doesn't really). there are basically no other competitors to chrome though, and mozilla seems dead set on not actually competing.


Osmose
@Osmose

To understand why Mozilla seems to do everything but improve the browser, simply look at the table above from the Mozilla Wikipedia page. Note the "Proportion derived from Google" column. Mozilla has never, since at least 2005, been less than 80% funded by it's main competitor (Chrome released in 2008).

Contrary to popular belief, this number doesn't mean that Mozilla does Google's bidding secretly—I am personally confident, having spent the better part of a decade there, that any bad decision that people assumed was because Google forced us to was our own folly.

Instead, what it means is that since before I even joined in 2011, Mozilla has been increasingly worried about what happens to Firefox if Google pulls the plug on the search deal. All these extra projects are explicitly attempts to make Firefox able to withstand losing that funding. That's also why Mozilla has over a billion dollars in the bank—to cover expenses during and after the extensive trimming down that will happen the moment the deal fails to renew.

Now, the LLM/Metaverse/MDN subscription plan stuff are terrible tactics to deal with this problem; Mitchell Baker/Mark Surman are making constant unforced errors in what they choose to focus on. But I keep making posts like this1 to make it really clear that the "they aren't improving the browser" complaint is not Mozilla failing to compete with Google and risking losing to Chrome—it is the consequence of already having lost to Chrome. They have to compete in this sideways fashion just to be able to survive with the funds necessary to maintain a modern browser engine.

Firefox is not going to out-browser Chrome for at least 5 years up to a decade, if ever. No one is going to make a usable new browser engine in that time either, because browser engines are on par with operating systems in their complexity. Someone with the chops to maintain a fork might actually fork Firefox—that would be the most interesting probable development IMO.

Last note, Firefox is constantly improving things, but many of them aren't clearly visible to end-users. A sample from recent release notes within the past 4 months:

  • Uses Wayland now instead of XWayland when available, meaning touch gestures, swipe-to-nav, etc. on Linux.
  • Added :has() selector for CSS.
  • Lazy-loading iframes.
  • Context menu entry to copy URLs without site-tracking parameters.
  • Canvas fingerprinting protection in strict mode / private browsing.
  • Progress towards disabling third-party cookies entirely.
  • WebAssembly garbage collection.
  • PDF editing (adding images + alt text)
  • Local-only automatic webpage translation that doesn't use an external API.
  • The <search> element

  1. Apologies to folks who keep having to hear me remake this post but I will never shut up about it, I have a primal urge for people to be mad at companies for the correct reasons.


eramdam
@eramdam

First: all of this. Obviously @Osmose knows more than me since I've haven't been a Mozilla employee but any web developer worth their salt will tell you that maintaining a browser engine is a lot of thankless work1.

I keep hoping that the impending Manifest V3 roll-out on Chromium browsers2 and Mozilla's refusal to implement it in a way that will impede ad-blockers might be another "oh fuck, let's switch to Firefox" akin to the tabs/pop up blockers of yesteryear but maybe that's being too hopeful. I've seen people simping for Brave and fucking Opera GX so maybe people don't care anymore and Mozilla knows this and is playing the pragmatic card of "we might as well take Google's money to get by". Especially since I suspect this buys Google's conscience and some goodwill in the public so they can go all "but see, we fund our competitors, so we're not a Bad Monopoly on the browser space!"


  1. Not that making a browser re-using an existing engine is easy either but that removes soooooooo much work from your plate already.

  2. That keeps being pushed out and i wouldn't be surprised if it either never happens in the shape Google wants it to or gets regulated on antitrust grounds or something.


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in reply to @maff's post:

You know, there are no non-Google funded browsers. The other two browser engines are mostly funded by Google default search deals. Like seriously, would Apple even develop WebKit if it wasn't for that deal? it's almost a quarter of their "services revenue". They could certainly afford to keep developing WebKit, but would they actually do it?

welp seems like we might find out soon, due to a court case

Apple for now does also have the advantage with WebKit that they can control how the default experience on their devices is, which is kinda half the point behind Apple stuff, so i'd expect them to keep it going tbh

and on iOS you can't even get a non-WebKit engine for now, but i think that might change

Waterfox is based on Gecko, Gecko is overwhelmingly funded by Firefox's default search deal with Google. That's what I mean. There's only 3 browser engines and they all rely on Google pretty directly. It's nice that they're all open source so teams like Waterfox don't have to make a deal themselves, but they wouldn't exist without Google's support, still.

Wow Waterfox really does have their own default search deal...how the heck does that square with all their privacy talk, you're still handing over all the important data (direct wants and needs in concise terms) to your search provider

i don't disagree that what's happening to mozilla is sad to see. but one thing to keep in mind is that mozilla is a company with employees it needs to pay, and since nearly everyone these days is complacent enough to just use chrome, it would go bankrupt if it didn't take every horrible sponsor and vpn partnership. i know that some of these decisions were just bad decisions and shouldn't have been made, but i think a lot of this comes from desperation as much as it does bad management.

Oh yeah, the human cost is not easy or feel-good to think about. I should've put more thought into that when I wrote the response. It's frustrating and a little perplexing to see them doing things like that instead of meaningfully improving their core product's user experience, and I hope to god there's a justifiable reason for it.

in reply to @Osmose's post:

Mozilla is one of the few places I would have ever considered a dream job (I suppose back when I was younger and less burnt out) that I'm sad I didn't land, having done some number of contributions to various projects. Google's browser monopoly fucking sucks, and it's only made worse by everyone else throwing in the towel.

If you can stomach the things they're working on it still is actually a place I'd recommend for at least junior devs, because their engineering chops were and still are an order of magnitude above most other companies. Tooling, code review, testing, etc. are all done better there than any company I've worked at since. The people/planning culture has degraded though.

Any startup making a webapp is definitionally relying on Mozilla's engineering culture to ensure their correct operation, I get real skeptical when anyone working on a webapp talks shit about browsers being broken and garbage as if they have full control over their own stuff lol

Having worked on a webapp for a living for almost 10 years I can say I've had way way less "showstopper bugs" reports coming from Firefox than any other browsers, by a mile.

Sure some of it might be that we have so less users (I might be one of a dozen that use it at work 🥲) but even the "Firefox-specific" bugs we had were really Chrome/Safari bugs in disguise because they didn't follow the spec for some CSS stuff while Firefox did properly.

On the other hand, I've seen drawing bugs on the most recent Safari/macOS crop up on the same code that worked fine for 3 years and a lot of Chrome-specific bugs that are still not fixed and we had to work around because what are you gonna do? Patch Chromium in your Electron app to fix the bug?

Not surprised, otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't take that long to upgrade it.

We do too at work but mostly to support stupid esoteric customers with their weird workflows so it's not that bad :P

Oof, that's the part that we're falling apart on which makes me want to look. We've historically had pretty good tooling/testing/code review, but our planning has just.... gone to shit.

Still would like most of the things they're working on, but oof. Place I'm at now is currently well past startup, and I've made sure that folks working on the webapp side of things are Familiar with browsers (... well, historically, again, it's falling to shit) because otherwise what are you even doing in a webapp and ahhhhhh

edit: same as @eramdam, I can't think of any Firefox bugs that were actually Firefox bugs. I can think of a lot of Safari nonsense, used to have to do a lot for IE8 compat (again, I'm old), and Chrome et al keep getting more and more specific shit to them......

if and when Mozilla stops being able to release new Firefox updates, what exactly happens to people who use the browser itself? Would it 'stop working' near-immediately, or would the aging last released version still be usable for a while longer?
My prior-experience-intuition tells me it might gradually get more buggy, incompatible with specific sites, and insecure as time passes, but of course I'm no expert

If updates stop, that's about right. Sync and some other things that rely on services may start to fail earlier.

The open source project and governance are separate from the corporation, however, and the foundation does have like $25 million of donations coming in yearly. Plus the aforementioned money saved in the bank means that the time between the deal falling apart and updates stopping will be a very long time. Building up those fallbacks is the other side of the revenue diversification strategy, and Mozilla has at least done pretty well on those points.

in reply to @eramdam's post:

It'd be nice... but I think the moment where Firefox didn't ship a default-on adblocker (which is a hairy question itself, I don't think it would've been an easy one to make) was the last opportunity like that.

Software choice is driven by virality and/or OS defaults now, at least outside business software decisions. I really dunno if anything will change that.

Yeah, network effects/habits are hard to break. Short of another "oh shit tabs!" moment, I don't see a massive Firefox shift happening anytime soon unfortunately. I'd love to see it but I doubt it will happen.