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smuonsneutrino
@smuonsneutrino

As someone whose elementary school and college friends were disproportionately Jewish and who has been thinking about Jewish folklore recently it strikes me that Rabbis (being scholars rather than priests) are just way more like Wizards than Clerics. I'm 100% certain I'm not the first person to notice this either.

And like, the way that Clerics (as usually written) find their true strength through Faith rather than through Thinking Really Hard About The Nature Of Reality etc. is also super Christian.

Idk I'm not a theologian or Jewish or religious at all and don't feel qualified to say much more than what I have. It's just extremely clear to me that D&D and its descendants often struggle to represent religion that doesn't feel very Christian in practice, format, or outlook. And our fantasy writing/rpgs deserve more than that.


thecommabandit
@thecommabandit

the fact that D&D was largely designed by an evangelical christian shines through like a nova when you start learning how historical greek and roman religion worked.

in most D&D settings, people pick a god they like or have an affinity with and worship them with prayers and acts of devotion, by living in accordance with their teachings, by taking vows etc. etc. this is not polytheism, this is flavoured christianity -- do you pray to God (the sea) or God (fire) or God (nature)? in historical european religions, you don't pray to poseidon and sing hymns to him, you pay fealty to him because he has the power to decide whether you live or die. if your last trip was good, clear sailing then you make an offering to one of his temples as thanks, because not thanking him is a quick way to incurr his wrath and get yourself killed. before a risky voyage you make a sacrifice to get on his good side so he'll intervene to help you, and if the priest administering the sacrifice determines that poseidon isn't pleased with your offering, you don't sail.

polytheistic religion is best understood as having relationships with nonphysical people, and those relationships vary depending on your society's social relations -- gods are kings whose favour must be gained by acts of fealty and service and whose wrath must be placated, while spirits and fae and nymphs are community members whose consent must be sought before you cut down that part of the forest, or build this house, or redirect this river.


yrgirlkv
@yrgirlkv

i am something of a skeptic where religion is concerned so forgive me for jumping to questions of power right out of the gate. but: i never feel that dnd clerics feel like they really convey the power that christians themselves feel they have? the thing that makes christians such scary tyrants is their absolute, unbridled confidence in the rightness of their own path, and even from within i have long since gotten the impression that a lot of christians' own internal peace comes from the omnipotence of Their One Guy as well. if your guy is the One True Guy then both your duty and your power emerge from this fact; it is your job to spread his glory because the only other option is burn, since all other gods are false, and you can't be touched because your guy is the most powerful being there is. but all dnd clerics know their god is not the sole deity in the world.

so what's even the point? in real polytheism the answer is pay fealty to poseidon or he'll drown your fuckin ships, but the world of dnd doesn't even use divine fealty to gate magic off, since wizards can do it too. vibeswise they're just kind of less cool wizards because they have to live by the code of some fucker you've never heard of but he hits hammers good with big magic and gives these nerds a fire spell or two so they spend all their spare time asking what he wants. the trade doesn't feel like it justifies itself unless you're bad at book learning, and like -- look, we can pretend for years that religion is a matter of deep personal resonance but the honest reality is that these things are essentially transactional. if dnd's mechanics work as they do every society that functions by dnd's rules should be getting less religious over time as they work out ways to accomplish by wizardry what clerics accomplish through divine blessing.

clerics are boring in dnd because gods in dnd are slightly better-dressed warlock patrons; none of these fuckers feel like they even APPROACH the power of a being like zeus, because if they did, everyone would have to watch out for them instead of just their personal clerics, but they don't approach the power of the abrahamic god either because otherwise he would be an even BIGGER deal. i want to say "in dnd a god is a military technology" but even THAT makes them sound way cooler than they are. in dnd what a god really is is a set of shackles on a cleric's potential


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in reply to @smuonsneutrino's post:

Druids, being divine casters, could hypothetically be seen as pushing away from theism in favour of animism, but the text is too “I dunno, nature!” for that to really play out.

Gonna be chewing on your post.

(And yeah, seeing the only options as being “worship [a] god” or “worship a nebulous concept of nature” is itself a very western dichotomy)

Even within Theist religions, though, I feel like Clerics are very constrained. Like, the cleric is tied into not just theism or organized religion or into a world where the idea of priesthood makes sense, but in the specifics of how Christians relate to their god

in reply to @thecommabandit's post:

"polytheistic religion is best understood as having relationships with nonphysical people"

okay see now i want to put together an rpg where magic is fueled by a dating-sim style mechanic. you gotta navigate complex relationships with various cosmic entities to maintain your sorcery. really put the "poly" in "polytheism."

i put this on another post too but

I think you might like the way that Mythras approaches magic/religion.

here's a link to more mythras info

There are several belief and magic systems, including Animism (though how accurate their take on it is, I can't say) and religion and religious structures (whether linked to magic or not) are an expected element to engage with, expected to become huge parts of the PCs' lives should they so choose-- there's ways of going from acolyte all the way to priest, obligations and tithes to fulfill to your gods, or however you decide to structure your mystery cult.

in the mythras game i played, we had a dystheist god (I think that's the name) where we had to sacrifice to avoid their wrath.

in reply to @yrgirlkv's post:

we just had an arc in our D&D game where this sort of question came up directly and it was really interesting for me to think about, playing a character devoted to a particular deity within a pantheon! (monk, not cleric, but same criticisms apply)

what I came away with was that yes, D&D pantheism doesn't work like the Greek way in that you're tithing to scary forces in fear of your life. but done correctly, or at least interestingly, it's also not interchangeable with a warlock's relationship to their power, because unlike them it shouldn't be transactional--a cleric (or monk) shouldn't do what they do because they want power and are sucking up to Poseidon so they can have some.

for a deity work to in the D&D system, it's more important that they represent a value than an object. a deity of the sea doesn't work, but a deity of justice? of atonement? of conquest? that's where a monk or a cleric comes into their own, because they believe in some single concept so strongly that they become a mortal champion of its embodiment. a warlock doesn't care at all about what their patron believes, because their relationship is purely transactional. a cleric done right, though, should know there are other deities in the pantheon but have chosen a particular one, not because they don't believe the other ones aren't powerful but because their values aren't totally aligned in the way they are with that one.