makyo

Author, Beat Sabreuse, Skunks

Recovering techie with an MFA, working on like a kajillion writing projects at once. Check out the Post-Self cycle, Restless Town, A Wildness of the Heart, ally, and a whole lot of others.


Trans/nb, queer, polyam, median, constantly overwhelmed.


Current hyperfixation: SS14


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eatthepen
@eatthepen

A question I think about sometimes for writing projects is 'what is the minimum viable chekov's gun?'. Like, if you conspicuously put the proverbial gun on the mantlepiece in act 1, what's the least use you can put it to that will pay it off? Can you put the proverbial gun on the mantlepiece and pay that off without firing it? Without anyone getting shot? Not necessarily in a subversive way ('haha! the gun is loaded with blanks!' or 'haha! the gun isn't loaded, but a secret message from the wife's lover is concealed in one of the chambers!') but in a way where someone noticing, picking up, interacting with the gun pays off something significantly less dramatic than violence or the threat of violence?

Today I'm thinking about this in the context of alien megastructures, which apparently I'm just coming up with as settings for everything these days. If I have a story set in a cool alien megastructure because that's a cool place to put a story, how little can I get away with explaining or revealing about the alien megastructure and have it still be enough that people feel the alien megastructure is more than just set dressing

Idle thoughts, conversation starter, tell me about cool books/plays/stories that have deflationary payoffs (which, I guess, implicitly there's a spoiler risk in the comments, I don't mind being spoiled on stuff but I know some people do)


caffeinatedOtter
@caffeinatedOtter

This is a very interesting question.

It's difficult to answer as a general abstract; the minimum use you can a put a particular thing to depends on its specific affordances. Chekov's gun can be used to shoot someone or something; to threaten; to bolster, claim or overturn authority; to change the power dynamics of a situation; as a object of value with those capabilities with which to trade. Chekov's hat, say, does not share all of those.

On the other hand, there's clearly a sense in which "change the power dynamics of a situation" is subtler than "shoot someone". The gun can change a situation simply because everyone becomes aware it's there — or because some, even just one character becomes aware of it!

Some early whodunnit-type detective novels apparently had endnotes, detailing clue-by-clue exactly where in the text particular information became available to the detective, so that the interested reader could double-check for themselves that the mystery was fairly solvable — that they themselves could have with the information given. And while the information presentation in those types of story perhaps verges on adverserial, I think there's a worthwhile point to be gleaned there: that it's possible to get too subtle. Chekov's gun is graspable because it's fired; if the gun's consequences become too abstracted from the fact of its firearm quiddity, is it still Chekov's?


themissileknowswhereitis
@themissileknowswhereitis

i think a discussion like this risks getting caught up too much in the nature of the mechanism and not the nature of what it is meant to metaphorically gesture towards as a concept. (this is perhaps inevitable given that OP is a philosopher. love you dear.)

which is to say - "chekhov's gun" refers to an oft-repeated piece of advice anton chekhov would give to young playwrights, which is typically shortened to something like "if you put a gun on the mantelpiece in the first act, it must be fired by the third" or something like that. this is actually an oveersimplification of the advice chekhov usually gave, which has the neat and unfortunate effect of subtly derailing the point of the advice as it was typically given, not unlike the way people quoting strunk & white's "omit needless words" or another, similar piece of advice, "show, don't tell" do a disservice to both those ideas, thanks to their own preconceived biases as to what the advice means.

because at the end of the day they all mean the same thing. chekhov's best articulation of this principle was "do not load a rifle on stage if it's not meant to be fired later on; writers must not make promises we don't intend to keep."

emphasis on the latter. in other words, if you put something in front of the reader's attention, then you'd better damn well know what reason you had for putting it there and your narrative had better be one that tried to vindicate it. that's all it means. chekhov gave this advice to student playwrights, specifically, because it was meant to help teach them to consider what their play structures really needed, what the purpose of their dialogues, actions, set directions really were about - because, much like many a modern writer, inexperienced hands would often get lost in the details of their narrative to the point that they would stymie their own ability to write the narrative they wanted to be writing in the first place.

this is what the typical simplification of his advice loses. chekhov explicitly called attention to the act of a loaded gun within the narrative because that was an act of intent on the writer's part, to create a narrative beat by directing their character to load the gun; called attention to the act of that loaded gun being placed upon the mantle or other such surface as an act of intentional delay on the writer's part, to then create tension in the audience have directed their character(s) to leave that narrative beat incomplete and set aside, due to the audience's expectation and/or awareness of the nature of the narrative beat in question, in this case a "loaded gun".

the reason chekhov tells these student playwrights that the "loaded" gun must go off later in the play is to get them to think about if they should've put in that scene that effectively forced their characters to have loaded it, if they're all, writer included, just going to forget it's there two acts later because the gun wasn't truly tied to any part of the rest of the story in the first place. a story that loads a literal gun early on, knowing that the payoff is that the literal gun was never going to be fired, is still a story that follows chekhov's advice. because it has, still, fired the metaphorical gun it intended to - it has still respected the audience's time and anticipation, it has still resolved the problem its writer understood they'd created. and there is no degree of narrative scrutiny too small, and no satisfaction too minor, that can't be paid off by a writer who cares about why they put that detail in the story as much, if not more, than what that detail is in the first place.

reducing the advice down to simply "if there's a gun on the mantlepiece in the first act, it should go off in the third" makes it altogether too easy to get hung up on the metaphorical mechanism of the gun and extrapolate from that part of the aphorism, instead of the advice chekhov was trying to impart - which is that the easy part of the joke's the setup - the part that takes practice is timing the punchline.


apogeesys
@apogeesys
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in reply to @eatthepen's post:

So in the Inform interactive fiction programming language family's world model, there's a notion of some objects as scenery — objects can be flagged as such (to the best of my recollection) to automatically supply a number of stock responses to IF attempts to verb on them, so that, say, you can have a "sunset" scenery that it's possible to LOOK AT and be furnished a description, but be gently and automatically brushed off as doing something The Game Engine Does Not Allow if you try to TAKE it.

I once read a summary of various peoples' criticism of Niven's Ringworld — a book I haven't read — that, basically, neither the author nor characters really comes to any grip with, nor finds any use for, the titular megastructure beyond strolling round gawping at it for being Really Big.

It is, in a sense, a scenery object. Which I think illustrates that the failure mode of "Wow, cool megastructure" is expecting that to carry the story on its own. Your story's gotta do its thing, whether that's via Chekov's Halo or by establishing cool scenery and then doing something interesting-in-itself with it as scenery.

(I dunno, I'm rambling.)

For something an alien megastructure, I think you can get away with almost completely under-explaining it so long as living in the shadow of something large and unknowable, or completely alien, is thematically relevant. It could also just be something mundane like a corner store, or unfinished, to give an explanation of why it's non-reactive.

For something kinda-sorta similar, I would point to Roadside Picnic. It's not exactly a megastructure, and the stuff sure as heck does things, but I think it still qualifies. Borderline-magical, outright miraculous things are emplaced onto Earth in the intro, and revelation is that there is no higher purpose, they are simply left uncaringly and the interaction with humans is beneath concern.

i read a lot of mystery stories and the form chekov's gun takes is most often is clues about the mystery, but writers often have to go to lengths to describe scenes and clues without giving away everything so its still a mystery by the end, even if the audience is correctly following the trail. a way i see it done often is through misdirection or obfuscation, or polar opposite of singular hyperfixation. that sounds kind of contradictory, but in the book "salvation of a saint" the consulting detective is very fixated on a water filter in the apartment at the scene of the crime as related to the method of the crime, meanwhile the police detectives are more concerned with the motive and social aspects of the crime. both become equally important to the solution, but much more of the book is dedicated to uncovering the motive, while cutting back occasionally to the water filter after it is researched and developed more and eventually becomes the hinge of the entire mystery.
in the context of exploring a setting as a chekov's gun, the same concepts could still be applied, where there are probably more important things going on while being in an alien mega structure, but a character focused on some inconsistency or has a question about the location that can't be answered at the moment, but through the narrative it will be built up and revealed. it'd probably be most effective if it's not contradictory to the other intention of being in the space, like the main mission is "find treasure in the center of the labyrinth" but this one character only has a half translated warning about something from the entrance, but needs to also delve into the labyrinth to gain more data for their translation efforts, and they are still there to aid the original mission as much as possible by reading signs inside the labyrinth. that way the "gun" is not an offhand comment or clue, but something that is building in the background in direct parallel with the main action but it's not entirely focused upon until enough intel is gathered to do something about it.
sorry if this is a lot lol, but i do recommend looking at mystery stories for more ideas since they are the most finely focused version of "set up, build, reveal."

The City in Blame is barely explained but it influences the entire mood/aesthetic/everything the characters do.

like three different plotlines go on because "the city is trying to kill you," is the operand problem [Blon and the bois hacking, the silicon creatures, Sanakan].

and there was the big response post someone made. intentionality is the main thing.

and the ez way to have it more than just set dressing is like, have stuff/plots/sequences happen that can ONLY happen in a story set in YOUR alien megastructure.

also chekhov was a playwright and a short story writer. with only so many props/words, you better make sure whatever detail you add is there for a reason.

I like the concept of a thematic payoff. don't fire the gun, talk about the gun, why it exists. ideally create some sort of parallel to the real action of the story. the alien megastructure commemorated an interstellar treaty that later fell apart, and the breakup that actually happens in the story feels like the sudden failure of a binary star system, launching stars and planets in all directions. all that remains intact is a wilting vase of flowers in a defunct megastructure, a monument within a monument.

in reply to @themissileknowswhereitis's post:

Oh, fascinating, I'd never heard the unedited advice before!

Then, if you tie it back to the alien megastructures, merely having one in the story is insufficient, probably, for the audience to expect a payoff as such. You'd need to "load" it, somehow, draw special attention to some aspect, secret, mystery, or tension to have the audience go "ooo, I bet that means some big reveal will happen later!". But as with the comments about Ringworld, if the megastructure remains unloaded and doesn't go off, AND nothing else interesting happens, the story will fall flat. Does that sound right?

for example - you can write about or illustrate there being a bunch of doors in a bunch of places within an alien superstructure, and it simply means that, well, as many wider structures (like, say, cities, which are at the minimum of the scale of superstructure we're gesturing at would be) do, this superstructure accommodates the architectural concepts that lend themselves to doors existing/persisting/being created.

but if you make a point to draw the reader's attention to a specific door, either in reference to its already being opened or its being closed - then there ought to be intentionality behind why the payoff is not at minimum co-incidentally tied to the act of going through its opening or the opening of said door, respectively, even if that payoff is that nobody goes through the door, that nobody opens the door - regardless of whether the narrative payoff is what is literally revealed past its threshold or not.

because the act of writing is the act of engaging with your ideal/intended/primary audience's expectations (the nature of which "audience" i will specify, here, because inevitably, the "audience" will consist of members of a public who may not be who the work is intended for and may, in fact, be an inherently hostile audience regardless of if the work itself is already antagonistic towards its audience) - and even the choice to leave them disappointed or disrespected has to be properly respected by the writer as a choice they're making, on purpose, knowing that is how the ideal/intended/primary audience will feel. because if not, then the ideal/intended/primary audience won't be satisfied by that disrespect or with that disappointment.

i can't actually speak to ringworld properly, as i've never bothered to read it - my longstanding opinion, acquired from years of encountering his short story work, that niven's work is tedious and overly full of itself, warned me off it well before it ever would've been something to interest me despite his name on the cover. but to take what i assume is its aim at face value - if the point is solely to present to the audience a superstructure in and of itself and have the exploration of it as an object that exists as the entirety of the narrative purpose, then the superstructure in and of itself had best be interesting and complex and fascinating enough to read about to vindicate that purpose in the primary audience's opinion. if not, then you've mainly accomplished writing a fantastical waste of everyone's time - both the audience's, and your own.

I agree with this. This also ties back into a common compliment someone might pay to a piece of writing: “Every word/sentence was there for a reason”. And I think this kind of compliment also has its share of pitfalls because the word “reason” is so loaded, it might make you think you need a very important reason, but as you say here:

and there is no degree of narrative scrutiny too small, and no satisfaction too minor, that can't be paid off by a writer who cares about why they put that detail in the story as much, if not more, than what that detail is in the first place.

There is a lot of flexibility on how large that reason or resolution is. It can be super minor. Maybe you add some flavor sentences early on to give the reader a vague emotion they carry with them through the rest of the story in order to slightly alter how they react. (No guarantees if they’ll pick up on that tho) Or maybe the reason is the lynchpin of the whole story. Just knowing why you are including something and having that inclusion do something is useful.