Mannie

@manwad

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Mannie @manwad1/14/2024, 12:24 AM

Scampir @Scampir

Scampir @Scampir1/13/2024, 11:56 PM

Is it an unspoken rule in ttrpgs that bad things can only happen to players if they are either foreshadowed or permitted by a dice roll outcome?

#TTRPG

Scampir @Scampir1/14/2024, 12:19 AM

we are collectively haunted by the spectre of bad GMs

Mannie @manwad1/14/2024, 12:24 AM

its the whole thing of like

a bad movie or a bad book can be fun to experience because it's a more passive thing.

a bad GM or a bad game suuuuuuuuuuuucks because you have to wade through everything, be it getting completely stonewalled at minimum to any number of awful ttrpg horror stories you can think of.

the enjoyment floor of a ttrpg vs like a board game is like an ocean vs a lake.
you could have a bad or a meh time with a board game but at least you'll be able to do shit.

with a bad GM or a bad ttrpg it's like, anything could happen (negative).

Inverse as well. a good GM can fuckin' shine, whereas a board game has a cap of how good it can get baseline. it can get pretty good.

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in reply to @Scampir's post:

noah @noahtheduke1/14/2024, 12:02 AM

In modern design? Usually. Traditionally? No lol

Jama @Jama1/14/2024, 12:08 AM

The Killer DM is something that has faded in popularity but was absolutely something in the past .

Mannie @manwad1/14/2024, 12:02 AM

Yes.

@PolterZeitgeist1/14/2024, 12:06 AM

Buddy, I have friends whom have had horrible things happen to them without foreshadowing because the GM said so.

@Asukapaper1/14/2024, 12:07 AM

with the particulars to be hammered out aloud as soon as possible. what's foreshadowed and what's a permissible outcome varies from player to player

Edcrab @Edcrab1/14/2024, 12:22 AM

awkwardly shifting around and avoiding eye contact
Well what do you mean by "bad things" exactly

Scampir @Scampir1/14/2024, 12:23 AM

when i wrote this, I was thinking "any consequence or event that works counter to player goals"

Tess, Clockwork Girl 🏳️‍⚧️@TessSynthetic1/14/2024, 12:31 AM

I don't think it's always an unspoken rule, it probably depends a lot on the game and play style. A bad thing happening to the players that shifts to focus to "How do you deal with this problem?" can be fun and interesting for everyone depending on personal preference even without foreshadowing or by will of the dice.

Scampir @Scampir1/14/2024, 12:34 AM

👍 If it is dependent on game and play styles, I have to wonder the relationship with a given game and the introduction of those problems.

Tess, Clockwork Girl 🏳️‍⚧️@TessSynthetic1/14/2024, 1:14 AM

It's a very interesting question.

Thinking about it a bit more, I think two types of situations I'd consider pretty fair in general, that don't require foreshadowing or dice would be

There is no foreshadowing or chance to avoid some bad thing happening to the player due to the consequences of a choice made by that player about how they were approaching a scene/area.
A predicament introduced where the interesting part is how the players deal with the bad thing that happened to them.

Vaporstrike @vaporstrike1/14/2024, 2:48 AM

So the short answer is, “Bad things happening to characters by surprise is fine.”

The Long answer is, it depends on a few factors, including the severity of the bad thing, and your session 0 discussions. If a bad thing happening is one that can either be stopped and/or mitigated in some way, you should probably be fine to do the bad thing. (Think things like ending up in a non-instant kill trap, like a room getting flooded). You should also take into consideration session 0 discussions. This goes without saying, but if the bad thing crosses lines or veils for your group, they probably shouldn't happen at all. And mentioning rule 0, you should discuss with your group in session 0 whether you want to have things like insta-kill traps or a more meat grinder-esque game. There are parties that enjoy those kinds of things, you just need to make sure your party is one of them.

in reply to @Scampir's post:

Mara @amaranth-witch1/14/2024, 12:27 AM

Honestly I think that's the takeaway from the initial question, yeah. "Bad GM" has a subjective component, but the expectation and framing and restriction of "no, it can only happen if [the dice/the system/the bargain] allows!" is very much a player-blorbo-protection move.

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