domain of sword lizard & rpg pervert "sraëka-lillian". i made Cataphract OI, LanVodis, and other rpg maker 2000 studies



Iro
@Iro

I am not immune to propaganda. Show me a trailer for an indie JRPG featuring scripted encounters on the field maps, dual techs, and guest tracks by Yasunori Mitsuda, and I'll go "oh, a Chrono Trigger inspired indie JRPG, I sure hope they actually learned the right lessons from the classics" and drop $30 to see if they did.

They didn't.

(Full spoilers for both Sea of Stars and Chrono Trigger under the break.)


DevilREI
@DevilREI

A lot of Western-made attempts at "classic-style" JRPGs stumble in similar ways. I feel like, had we actually received more localized JRPGs in English in the 16-bit era, our perceptions of what a "classic" JRPG is would be tremendously different. This was the era of Romancing SaGa (non-standard progression and levelling), Shin Megami Tensei (Monster-gathering and post-apocalyptic fuckery), Live A Live (experimental multi-character storytelling and unique grid-based combat), and Dragon Quest V (emotional rollercoaster of melodramatic story that will kick you in the genitals several times over its playtime). All stuff that was pushing the genre forward in Japan during a time when we were getting generally standard-fare stuff. Good standard-fare stuff, mind you, but what's the most "non-standard" JRPG that got localized around that time? Robotrek? Probably Earthbound, but that also has its own issues of "people not getting why that game worked and their wacky modern-day turn-based RPG doesn't."


iiotenki
@iiotenki

I think a mistake that a lot of people understandably make with Japanese RPGs when trying to parse them overseas, whether it's just as a casual player, a critic, or, indeed, someone making one of these sorts of homages, is that with such a developmentally mature and robust genre, for the most part, within their native context, pretty much none of the standout releases that people have latched onto overseas were singularity events that just spontaneously appeared fully formed independent of external forces and influences. These are games that were in constant dialogue and responding to one another, and like Heidi mentioned, the conversations these games were actually having tended to be really different than what players overseas were realistically able to perceive, which just comes naturally with the hindsight afforded to that direct access to genre history without the filter of spotty, piecemeal localization efforts. If you sit down and read old interviews or game of the year lists from developers operating in that space, you'll quite often find a canon of games that can be pretty starkly different from the one that's formulated among players, but if you take the time to play them, they can be very instructive and illuminate what that real conversation taking place among these game developers and their games actually is and who's setting the topics.

It's why I think a lot of the games of this ilk that identify primarily as homages to other games first and foremost have an, at best, muted reception when they're localized and brought out in Japan. It's not that it's a bad call to make per se, but, knowingly or not, they're entering that conversation with talking points that have long since been hashed out domestically without necessarily bringing any new food for thought. "Game that's like X, but with prettier sprite art" isn't necessarily the most compelling pitch when you're talking about a market that's not only likely had literal decades to consider and mull over X game already, but also saw how it emerged onto the scene in its heyday and impacted that scene in its wake. That's not me saying there's no value in games where developers are clearly trying to make another Thing That They Like That Nobody Makes Anymore; just that it's important to be cognizant that what that thing means to people in one part of the world isn't necessarily 1:1 with how it's perceived elsewhere, least of all its native market.

And that's to say nothing of games like, seemingly, Sea of Stars that fail to recognize that there's a certain underlying sincerity to the games that they're riffing on in terms of the developers' belief in their design, etc. When they include elements of those inspirations whole cloth Simply Because or to poke fun at, there is almost always a failure to fully parse those original intentions and, in turn, the conversation surrounding that game in its native language. If I had to say why I don't personally gravitate towards a lot of such homages as someone with that ready access to genre history and the fluency (linguistic, but also Japanese game design specific), that tends to be the primary culprit.


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in reply to @Iro's post:

Appreciate that you did explain yourself well and gave exanples of your issues even for a long post. Was a intresting read! I tried a few hours of Sea of stars not feeling it at all. Ocotpath 2 is fantastic so far though.

Omori and Lisa the Painful are pretty fantastic turn based JRPG's.

I'm really salty about the writing/story and I feel like it really spits in your face at the end, but im curious if more people will share the opinion that the combat doesnt justify itself for all 25 hours. Imo the combat makes a great first impression, but there's no sense of evolution.

Strange choice for a game that streamlines away "character builds"! I feel like as a dev you should counterbalance the simplistic builds by having lots of moves. Even in something like Paper Mario, there's technically a higher number of moves you can do by the end.

also yeah i can't believe the true ending is just that the final boss goes "aw dang guys guess you got me" and then walks off into a portal, absolutely comical

I remember seeing your "I hope Sea of Stars is better than Chained Echoes" post and thinking "uh-oh". The wasting time part is exactly why I lost hope for this game during its development, every gif they showed was some super beautiful animation of super empty slow gameplay. Not that it's super important, but more, if that's what they're focusing on, it's worrying. And the demo confirmed this completely (the only surprise was how fast swimming was! :D)

Anyways, that was just to say: big same for the small parts I've experience through the demo. As for the rest it was very interesting, great review. Crazy that they've both redone Chrono Trigger, but also their Messenger twist in a way?

Any thought about the level design in dungeons? That's another part that didn't really impress me in the demo, kind of mostly automatic puzzles, like a slightly more involved tight rope animation.

I didn't really have a chance to fit it into the whole review, but I got really tired of how every single dungeon followed the same format of "Here's a central room with the Progress Door and a campfire, you must go down 2-4 cul-de-sac offshoots to collect the keys for the door"

Unfortunate. I really thought The Messenger was a stellar game (apart from the writing) and was hoping that they would shore up their weak point especially when tackling a genre that heavily depends on good writing. I'm a little biased as I already don't care for Chrono Trigger, but I really wish teams who clearly have some creativity and skill would stop trying to deliver "their take" on classics.

There is something depressing and familiar about seeing a game gain viral attention by focusing on gorgeous graphics while skimping on things like combat design, scriptwriting, or narrative design. It makes sense why that works, but like... this game sounds extremely forgettable.

Man, it kinda sucks SoS turned out like this. The Messenger was pretty great, aside from the self-aware dialogue but that was pretty easily ignored. I don't get the urge to throw in wink-wink-nudge-nudge writing, just Get Silly and believe in it!

oh thank you this really crystallizes why i dont want to get this game-- i got a bad vibe from dialogue in the demo that sort of caused me to snap-judge it and ive been trying to figure out since if i was being unfair or if this was just a canary i needed to rescue from this coal mine.

thinking again about how the first time i played Chrono Trigger i had 1. most of the game spoiled thanks to game magazine coverage and 2. a nonexistent reference pool for JRPGs and JRPG tropes

as such, yes, i always found Magus fuckin' cool, but i didn't appreciate in full just what the fuck his deal was

he is the classic generic JRPG fantasy villain with a 180-degree twist

he's positioned as the Demon Lord (his name is literally 魔王 in the Japanese version!) trying to take over the world, and Lavos is basically named as the apocalyptic god he's trying to summon

but he doesn't give a shit about world conquest, or even the demons looking to him for leadership

all he wants is his chance to take his revenge against Lavos for destroying his civilization and sending him spiraling across time, and literally everything he has done has been in service to that end goal

and it's fucking brilliant, and the best part is, it all still lands even if you know jack shit about JRPGs

and never once did the writers feel compelled to go "oh hey, you know, this would be such a shocking twist if you were expecting it to go like Dragon Quest 1 or something"

the whole fucking arc stands on its own merits

in reply to @DevilREI's post:

main things that come to mind immediately for less standard fare that got officially localized are EVO the Search for Eden and Terranigma (which are really more action games), maybe Harvest Moon if you're feeling a bit generous

When I heard that the team behind The Messenger was making an rpg my first thought was "that sounds intolerable".

I played Chained Echoes for about an hour and a half, but in the end I ended up returning it because although the systems seemed interesting I couldn't put up with the writing. It was so bloated and self-indulgent; I couldn't deal with it. From having played The Messenger I fully expected it to be that, plus winking, subversion for subversion's sake and mindless sarcasm. Sounds like I was fairly close.

in reply to @iiotenki's post:

Yeah, I admit I'm working from a pretty limited perspective myself. As an only English speaker I don't have firsthand knowledge of many of those formative games other than in an broadly academic sense. For example, the only Dragon Quest I'd played in earnest until XI-S was Monsters on the Game Boy. I'm not sure I've ever played a Falcom game.

For an example more specific to the review, I know that DQV released years before CT and has a plot element where the main character is defeated by the villain and focus shifts to someone else... but I don't know any of the specific context behind that in a holistic sense. Thus, I didn't mention it in the review even though I get the vibe it's probably a more pertinent example of "character death" than FFIV or FFV.

Oh yeah, that's not a knock on you and what you wrote at all, to be clear! I obviously don't fault players for evaluating things from their own perspective. You only truly know what you can play! I'm mostly just saying that I wish more developers who worked on games like this would be cognizant of the space they're entering and what they have to bring to the table. It's not that non-Japanese developers can't offer anything valuable to those spaces, of course, just that there can be a higher burden in terms of genre literacy to leave anything impactful.

I might be biased because I'm good friends with the writer, but I think it's why Va-11 Hall-a resonated so much with Japanese players when it was localized, and still continues to do so. It wasn't just a game aping the PC-98 aesthetic; it understood the physicality of what that sort of interface offers and recontextualized it in some really fascinating ways (although it certainly doesn't hurt that team really did its homework when it came to evoking the look and feel of those games, to be sure).

This made me consider the thought that I would be absolutely fascinated by the entirely hypothetical Japanese-made Not-Infinity-Engine Isometric CRPG

though I guess Etrian Odyssey and its ilk are kind of that, just split from an earlier branch

(also yeah, va-11 hall-a rules)

Hiroshi Iuchi took a lot of CRPG inspiration for Treasure's Light Bringer on Megadrive (there's a King Garriott!), as did Climax to a lesser degree with Landstalker. Both are isometric ARPGs but they offer a kind of weird look into a parallel universe where that was the Japanese ARPG standard.

Darn. I'll probably still give it a shot, but I remember playing the demo and noting the writing of the game doesn't take itself seriously and that I couldn't get invested. From all the rave reviews and sales people were giving it, I assumed it was either just demo shenanigans or a small bit I could ignore.

Maybe I'll just break out the old DSi and start up another run of Chrono Trigger.

How necessary is this context, though? Like I'm on board with what you're saying here but a small part of me feels weird treating the overseas view and responses as lesser (not really the right word, I don't think we're actually invalidating homages like this) due to lacking the context vs being a different conversation entirely.

It's not a fully formed thought but I wonder if there's something more than nostalgia to why enough people are drawn to homages like this that miss the mark? Or are they simply still hungry for more of the same because they didn't get their fill from the JP only releases?

It's admittedly a viewpoint I have difficulty with fully articulating for the reasons that you mention, so I genuinely appreciate when people like you press me for clarification. Hopefully one of these days I'll really hone that nuance to better get it across in one go.

So I obviously agree that "localized" (as in a physical location or market and not necessarily the the end product of a localization process per se) experience for a given genre is valid and worth exploring in these sorts of games. When I'm translating games into English myself for my job, I'm quite often carefully considering those sorts of discrepancies when weighing what material needs extra attention to ensure foreign audiences grasp what's being asked of them, etc. And in today's market especially, sometimes you get games that straight up matter more in those foreign contexts than their native ones because that's where they found the most success. That happened a lot less overall 20 to 30 years ago, but it is of course important to bear in mind that the totality of a game's release history does matter in conversations.

For me, it's not necessarily about foreign developers trying to maintain parity with Japanese ones in terms of their historical. That's a pretty implausible goal post to maintain and it's not even necessarily a particularly productive one past a certain point even if you do have the means to engage in that sort of pursuit. That said, when we're talking about a game like this that is following in some pretty obvious footsteps, I won't necessarily go so far as to say it's a responsibility for foreign developers to try and do as much homework within their means when we're talking about creative freedom on some level. But I think those who go to those lengths ensure that: 1. they do have a deeper appreciation and understanding of the actual identity and context of the material that they're iterating upon and that, 2. their contributions to that surrounding conversation—which may very well (or even should) drawn upon their personal, local experiences—are meaningful and they aren't just asking questions that have been asked and answered better by other games elsewhere. Up to a certain point, there can be value in simply "somebody else" doing their own spin on something they like. And hey, if that gives them personal fulfillment, more power to them. But I think pursuing that deeper fluency can ultimately only stand to make for a meatier, more thoughtful final product, and potentially introduce players to those other ideas and experiences that they might not otherwise be able to encounter in games.

As an example, I think these sorts of issues tend to be particularly pronounced in certain types of western-made VNs that are intent on subverting the genre, or at least as they understand it. And a lot of the time those efforts fall flat in practice even with good intentions because they're often made on the basis of certain preconceptions about genre themes or limitations that you wouldn't find with a more wide-ranging, holistic understanding. So you end up with games that present themselves as "smart" and maybe they are to certain segments of their audience, but then go on to be frustrating experiences for other players because that ground has been treaded upon more than those developers realize, even just by games that are readily available, whether officially or as a fan translation. As pieces of art more broadly, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say such games lack worth just because their developers weren't omniscient, but if it's a conversation that they're going to enter, then I think developers of such games tend to best serve their players and their respective genres as whole when they know the room they're walking into. All of that goes for these sorts of games trying to pay homage to previous stuff, especially in genres where the level of development and exploration may be different between on part of the world and another.

As for what draws people to these sorts of games regardless, I do think part of it boils down to people not having regular exposure to more games like it and the wider genre in a localized, readily accessible manner. And in that sense, obviously there is value to these sorts of games in scratching an itch for people. I'm one of those players sometimes, too! But whether it's particularly constructive—or instructive, for that manner—beyond that immediate audience I think is a different matter entirely. A lot of these sorts of games I think tend to fade into relative obscurity over time after making their initial splash once people have had time to really consider them and I will certainly be curious to see if this game gets mentioned in the same breath as Crono Trigger much past this initial release period.

10/10 reply would read again

I think the refined version of my question, then, is "Is there an interesting insight in what this game chose to take without that context from Chrono Trigger?"

Chrono Trigger's success both domestically and internationally makes it clear that as a game it stands out both in response to its contemporaries, but also as a standalone game (or at least in response to a much thinner field of internationally available games).

To be really specific: Why didn't Sea of Stars retain the speed of Chrono Trigger's encounters? It could be simply not noticing the issue after piling on the different parts of the battle system, but I think about game length and how much more people talk about it nowadays, and I wonder, like, would people complain about the game being too short if they retained it? What is an homage to do when faced with the tension between faithfulness and modern expectations? Is Chrono Trigger actually as timeless as we imply it to be?

I doubt it honesty Trigger was never my big jam I loved Cross more for trying to make really good points with its two worlds. I saw all the hype for the game and hoped it would be good because trigger is just hard to do but seems easy and the best games are those that take a shot in the dark and try a new path and SAY SOMETHING and we just miss alot of how odd the SFC era of JRPG was like Metal Max and glory of heracles 3 or dragon quest 5-6 and just so many great games hell wild arms rarely gets ideas taken from it save the intro bits

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