meow-d

aspiring catgirl

 
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pfp: Mizuki from Project Sekai from the Kitty music video
banner source: some random post from 小红书
 
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'meow_d' text with yuri background. the yuri is from https://seiga.nicovideo.jp/seiga/im10931700

Fedi (Mastodon)
@meow_d@mas.to

meow-d
@meow-d

apparently the whole ui changing discourse is mainly about the new discord update. i knew discord updated but i never put two and two together, probably because, i, urm, liked the update. i find it puzzling that people are having such vitriolic hatred for the change.

actually, i probably shouldn't have said that, because i'm pretty sure 90% of people are just slightly annoyed. but it sure feels like that after seeing an entire reddit thread where everyone unanimously hated it, like it's so outrageous that the entire internet united against it. and i'm the only one who doesn't understand.

i don't know how to feel about this. i like new update and i'm perfectly happy to spend some time getting used to it. but most people are reasonably unhappy to be forced to change. should we never ever change? should we make everything customizable and let technical debt accumulate? should we disregard users' feelings and force everyone to change? what are we supposed to do?


Osmose
@Osmose

what are we supposed to do?

This is actually an interesting question because some people have specific criticism and ideas that, if they were followed, would make the changes good in their eyes. So they're okay with change, just not this specific change.

Some folks think change itself is the issue, or at least the speed and magnitude. They perhaps want change to only happen slowly and in pieces.

Of course a lot of folks are expressing frustration with the change without offering an alternative. Maybe they don't want anything to have changed in the first place? I often wonder what these people would think if they were asked how to handle the problems a redesign was trying to solve; will they suggest different changes, or will they reject the problems as not being problems in the first place?

From a professional software dev view there is already an industry-standard answer: Listen to feedback, implement changes you agree with (if there are any), and otherwise just let people express their frustration and take any hit to usage until the heat dies down. It is generally viewed as counterproductive to respond too quickly to large spikes in negative feedback unless either the business is threatened by it or it persists well past when most people have cooled off and adjusted.

Specifically, it's not counterproductive because users are always wrong—they are often working off incomplete information, but so are you, and sometimes their instincts are spot on—but because their immediate feedback is data tainted by frustration. The adjustment period to a redesign has a time limit, and if you intend to be around for a long time, what you want to base your decisions on is how users that are used to the redesign use the app, not users who are still pissed off and fumbling for the right buttons.

You can get this data ahead of time with A/B testing, although bad testing practices can make this data as bad or worse than immediate feedback.

While it's standard in the industry, it's not without its critics. Some people believe customization is vital to usability and redesigns should preserve old options as much as is feasible. Others think that part of what makes open source ethical is that users who don't want the redesign can fork the project, and market forces will decide the rest. These are compelling from a user perspective, but less so from a for-profit (even non-VC-backed) perspective due to increased maintenance effort and risk of being replaced. It's rare for multiple forks of complex software to thrive in the long term.

Some also think designers and devs just aren't listening to users enough and the fix is to simply respond to users more. There's a spectrum of how much or how little you heed and respond to user feedback, although I do think it's rare for a company to listen to user feedback in opposition to its own designers. Feedback isn't a vote, it's a dialog. You're trying to convince the business to do something, whether you do it through reasoning or through threats.

Ultimately it's impossible to make everyone happy, so you just need to explicitly decide: What do I care the most about? Sentiment on social media in the short term? In the long term? Existing users? New users? Usage hours? Signups? Revenue per user?

When you don't frame it like that you'll end up trying to care about all of them at once, which is what leaves you thinking that there's no winning choice.


aune
@aune

i feel like one thing that makes all of this worse is when you have apps like it, like slack, that roll things out.... how they do. it's one thing when websites do it, but now even the shit you install can't be "trusted"

great, you disabled updates? too bad! here's an updated blob of javascript we pulled down. doesn't matter what you were trying to do. suddenly everything's different

one of the reasons people get so mad at windows update is that they didn't get much say in when the update went off. what's that, you had a meeting right as you got up? too bad, maybe your meeting shouldn't have been on patch tuesday, enjoy being 30 minutes late because of a forced restart and installation

there's no indication anymore. no "hey, big update coming" inside of the application. no version numbers that are visible to anyone that mean anything. hell, the idea of an LTS channel is practically gone. you basically cannot trust that any time you go to use any application that you will be able to do the task you intended without having to relearn the entire damn thing.


case in point?

patreon suddenly had and switched to dark mode when i loaded it, with no immediately visible way to swap it off, just this evening -- personally, i think their implementation looks like shit and it's mind boggling that it's not in settings but instead in the meatball next to the account switch dropdown -- and damn, that's even more fatigue with using their damn site (please, just let me have an actually useful feed again, or just set notifications to default?? something??)


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in reply to @Osmose's post:

in reply to @aune's post:

I'm reading you as saying roughly "Updates are forced on users too aggressively and without enough warning" and I think I mostly disagree except in egregious cases (Windows 11 being a prime example of being too extreme).

I feel like, what with how many people just fall off and never update again just accidentally (it happened a lot at every job I've had, like I think the amount of user churn per Firefox version was around 10k users) that aggressive auto-updating is a net good. It frustrates people like you, and that's unfortunate (and your annoyance is valid) but it's better to have frustrated users over users who just get left behind forever without any choice in the matter.

Notifications of upcoming updates are tough because 1. Average users find them really annoying, and 2. In my experience any advance knowledge of a change without being able to access it is worse in terms of sentiment, because people get preemptively mad aver something they can't even see yet. The benefit of letting people prepare for a big change is eclipsed by fear or anger, and then you still have the same frustration cycle on update day as well.

I think the tangled core of all of this in my head is that these are really costs of using software with large userbase. All of the concerns I highlighted above are not your problems. They're other people's problems. It's the company trying to account for the rest of the users that inflicts their tastes and needs and misbehaviors on your own experience.

Which, if you follow that train of thought, leads to the premise of Cohost: software made in a very opinionated way for an intentionally smaller audience without plans to grow for massive profit. If such a model is possible in the general case, then you can use the software alternatives made for folks who share your values without having the values of folks who, say, want rapid updates, being forced on you.

The funny thing is... I agree on security updates for windows! They should be required, they should be regular. 11 really is what broke me.

I actually do run Firefox Nightly. I'm not opposed to all updates or changes. But I can see if I'm putting one off or have one waiting, and there's version numbers that I can look up changes on and know what's actually happening instead of just... No information

One of the big things I actually deal with at work is people stuck on older versions and how to get them to move forward. It sucks and is hard, I really don't have all the answers here, I just feel like there has to be something better than All This

Yeah I got the wrong impression at Mozilla on what the industry standard for release process and documentation was lmao, Firefox absolutely kicks the pants off most software on almost all aspects of the release process.

I remember having a convo once at Discord with a manager who claimed that it's really tough to hire people to work on build processes because no one likes doing it vs feature development and I almost shouted at them "RELEASE ENGINEERING IS A DISCIPLINE! YOU SUCK AT HIRING THEM BECAUSE YOU DONT EVEN KNOW TO CALL THE ROLE RELEASE ENGINEER LET ALONE HOW TO STRUCTURE THE TEAM OR THE RESOURCE ALLOCATION RATIO VS THE REST OF THE ORG"

I was thinking more after posting this last night, and I think a Better Than All This world hinges on 1. financial viability and industry mindshare of smaller non-growth-obsessed tech companies, and 2. more open protocols.

The first one is really just regular degular anti-capitalist activism, but the second one is tough because open protocols historically either stagnate or become dominated by the top 1-3 players. Depending on who you ask, email is either extremely stable or terribly outdated. Web protocols are less stagnant thanks to the big players involved but we know the issues with big players strong-arming that space.

I'm not terribly interested in decentralized social networks / ActivityPub for social reasons, but ActivityPub is really fascinating in the sense that it's the only open protocol I know of where clients that interoperate have different capabilities (i.e. post length limits, markdown rendering depending on your client, etc.) and it doesn't seem to be a major factor in adoption or protocol development. Compare to web browsers, where one browser supporting a feature that no other browser does is considered a bad thing in the long run.

Maybe I'm a freak but I do enjoy build tooling and release management. And just platform building in general. (and I'll probably say more on not a phone keyboard)

Oh I do too, at least when given the proper time to. Last job expected me to go from having no native code experience of any kind to being a Bazel + Objective C + Swift + iOS + Kotlin + Android + Gradle expert in the space of about a month, which is part of why I am no longer working there.

But like I definitely don't cosign that manager's view, they were very much applying their own preferences as well as a corporate preference for "development that has the shortest conceptual connection to profit" to the idea. Build system work seldom generates new revenue directly, its benefits are indirect via better workflows for feature devs or in saving on costs.