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in reply to @renkotsuban's post:
I think it's good that you're talking about it. Like obviously it doesn't FEEL good, and educating and spreading knowledge about this SHOULDN'T be placed on your shoulders. But I dunno. I'm glad you're talking about it.
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in reply to @renkotsuban's post:
Thank you for posting about this, it has got me thinking about stuff which I appreciate
I appreciate you posting about it! if nothing else it makes me feel like less of a stick in the mud when I point out how weird and genuinely harmful it is
It absolutely sucks that opening up the floor to a little introspection has resulted in such pushback. These are conversations game devs need to have and I’m really grateful that you’re sharing your thoughts and experiences on this.
"Like this is probably on the more blatant side of things but the servile, infantile, submissive Japanese anime body pillow waifu is fuckin everywhere."
I get the feeling that Western devs do this (use this style) so they can "get out of jail free" with gross misogynistic "big tiddy anime girlfriend waifuuuuu" shit without being held accountable because they can just point to Japanese media and be like "Well that's just the culture/style!" (I have seen this. It also includes them bringing up 'age of consent' shit too). And since there are almost next to no articles from Japan about the pushback in Japan about this on anime news sites, they just get everyone thinking that it's 'OK' and not debated in Japan so "You certainly shouldn't be calling it out here in "
Also if I see a .moe site I assume the owner is a pedo because that's what I see from stuff tagged moe. Sexualized children. (I know in Japan it encompasses more.. there's even male characters! However over here.. well..)
I get the feeling that Western devs do this (use this style) so they can "get out of jail free" with gross misogynistic "big tiddy anime girlfriend waifuuuuu" shit without being held accountable because they can just point to Japanese media and be like "Well that's just the culture/style!"
This is a good point, and the use of the defense doesn't have to be premeditated or malicious for it to be true.
There are, bafflingly, a fair number of cars with big vinyl "waifu hunter" wraps here in socal. I've had well intentioned friends tell me it's just a cultural display and I wouldn't find it weird and embarrassing if it was from a white culture (Toronto Maple Leafs wrap was the counter example I think). And like,
- yeah I would
- culture is not exempt from criticism
Let's be real about 99% of huge jpeg-style wraps like that in the entire world are weird and embarrassing. It's rare anyone does it in a way that isn't.
And since there are almost next to no articles from Japan about the pushback in Japan about this on anime news sites, they just get everyone thinking that it's 'OK' and not debated in Japan so "You certainly shouldn't be calling it out here in "
The erasure of Japanese feminism, Japanese leftism, the actual lived experiences of queer Japanese people and so on is genuinely infuriating. The flattening of Japanese culture, politics and social dynamics down to a narrow slice of cultural export is so extremely conveniently revealing.
I think the last feminist thing I saw from Japan was about that big breasted 12 year old looking character (Uzuki-chan) was being used as mascot for a blood drive (article https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-10-16/busty-uzaki-chan-wants-to-hang-out-blood-donation-drive-poster-sparks-online-debate/.152264) and it seemed to be framed as "Look at all these craaazy women getting angry over a cartoon character!" because at the end it's like "Please go out and buy the anime/manga, here's the details!" (Basically bad press is still good press)
(I do like Ota's point that "YES! It IS background sexual harassment" which is the way I feel about these car vinyls in another comment here)
holy shit "background sexual harassment" is a phrase i've been looking for for years. that's exactly what it feels like when i encounter it in public or a guy wearing one of those hoodies.
God if I had a nickel for every time someone who spent all their time on Twitter talking about misogyny and how nobody should watch X or Y show because of misogyny and then recommended everyone watch their latest favorite pedo bait or harem anime I'd be rich. Some people's brains turn all the way off when it comes to anime somehow.
Uh maybe not have an anime child as your avatar and run a .moe site. You probably don't realize that "moe" (the stuff about "cute girls doing cute things" or the "cute girls in traumatic situations" with a side of sexualization on both) is mostly marketed to ADULT MEN. Which is super gross when you think about it. And if you DO. Well that tells me everything I need to know.
Maybe do some soul searching why you NEED a .moe address over one that doesn't scream "I'm one of those creepy anime girl avatar having gross 4chan people that scream 'age of consent' at every opportunity"
Americans treat pretty much everywhere not America like this and it's... just so exhausting. I'd prefer to just be forgotten most of the time then have a bunch of Americans weigh in on or try and engage with anything to do with where I live.
And I imagine with a bigger focus in pop culture media it's like a million times worse for Japan.
Appreciate your posts on it. It's absolutely one of those elephants that keeps hanging out in the room.
As tough as it's been for you, I appreciate what you're doing. Thanks for speaking up.
probably a tangent of what you're saying but I, too, have engaged with a lot of cultural products that have been using east asian cultures as aesthetics, settings, inspirations, etc. and I often walked away thinking "surely, there's something from these people's cultures that is similar enough -- that could work -- for these narratives?"
I once read a GL webtoon set in a japan (the whole high school student angst stuff) that felt like any other high school stuff because there was nothing good about it being set in japan other than give the protag vaguely japanese names and make them wear vague uniforms. and the author was from a country that had schools with uniforms! genuinely NOTHING begged for the setting to be japanese and yet they went ahead and did that, because they loved yuri manga and wanted to do it as an homage of sorts. and genuinely, it ruined a lot of it for me. "you couldn't think of how to use the japanese setting properly? you couldnt research high school settings in japan to make it make sense?" etc.
Like, in general, there's a failure to engage with your own culture + a dreamlike escapism in orientalism. it's so peculiar to me (and frustrating)
Bloom on the Playdate is a recentish example of this kind of thing for me, it's like the most American story I've ever seen but with the most on the nose generic Japanese names thrown on it and a yen symbol before the currency. There's like...fucking...NOTHING about it that feels like it is supposed to be set in or involving Japan in any way. I've always been baffled by all the praise this game got but it's notable that it's basically all from white people, and more importantly most of the early praise I saw from it came from white straight men.
It also feels like a game about lesbians written by people whose idea of lesbians comes from like...idk, Love Live fanfic or something, but that's a separate problem. Or is maybe the same problem, thinking anime is real life.
I don't check playdate releases so it hadn't come on my radar but now that I read up on it I'm a bit.... weh about it.... This could be set anywhere lmao. I guess it feels very "slice of life" in how the setting doesn't matter, but at the same time if you want to set it in a specific country... at least use its codes?? where is the pretend-LINE app? It's so weird to make something super vague and then just decorate it for vibes
It's the most American writing on earth and also seems to think that 20-something lesbians talk like 13 year olds to their first crush. And also that you're going to afford a 3 story building as a college dropout in Japan. And you drive everywhere.
It's like the least Japanese story ever written by a bunch of white dudes.
This is so well put! (also I know the webtoon you're talking about, and while I love the art of that comic, you're 100% spot on about the choice of setting lol.)
Someone on another post talked about how no one makes a cutesy "working at tesco simulator", and that really resonated with me and resonates with this post I think. Even when it's not malicious, that dreamlike escapism is so obviously present in a lot of these works and is frankly so dulling. It removes the opportunity to be intriguingly specific, to actually dig into the spaces the devs know intimately and create something vivid and fresh.
That one was worse that the others even because that person went to a real Japanese convenient store and faked a job interview to see what the back rooms looked like. So it's not just theoretically treating Japan like the land of make-believe, it's them literally in real life doing it. Luckily the guy interviewing them caught them taking photos and made them leave. Lucky for them he didn't call the cops.
God what a nightmare person ☠️the more I hear about that game the more it sucks
Y'know I say "fake job interview" but I'm sure they 100% would have accepted the job just to get more photos in the building lmao
I thought about the tesco simulator comment too, for sure. if anything because I'd be a huge fan of that, I think. My main beef with gamedevs is how they refuse to use their own cultural tidbits as sources of inspiration. Tesco isn't as glamorous as a konbini I guess.
There are obvious things ppl draw from because of the collective imagined idea of what they are (french bakeries, romanticized vaguely french/parisian settings, cozy countryside farms, coffee shops to name a few) but I hate how most people will use them as aesthetics with nothing of value to it, in a veneer like way. And I'm not saying it's bad but there MUST be a way to do it with love and care
These are good posts, thanks for posting them.
It sucks that this has been used as a stick to beat 'wholesome games' specifically, coz like you say, orientalism (and other varieties of racism) are everywhere.
Also thank you so much for bringing up bojack's brie problem. I hadn't encountered anyone who thought it was iffy before and I thought I was losing my mind.
Sorry I feel weird repeating my comments but on Cohost people don't always see followup convos if they aren't directly notified: as I was saying to someone else, it's because the Wholesome Games stream just happened and it had an egregious number of games like these all concentrated in a single stream. Plenty of other games do this, but that's why wholesome games are being discussed in particular, that stream was so full of games by western (and largely white) devs making extremely stereotypical games set in or "inspired by" Japan with a lot of bad Japanese titles.
sure!
I mean I guess the point I'm making is that if the problem is only recognised in a subset of media (which incidentally falls out the sphere of "acceptable bro gamer game") then it either gives other media a free pass or stops deeper examination of why this happens or how to prevent harm?
I'd consider this bad! I'm not even saying that wholesome games should get a pass or whatever whataboutery. im just agreeing with the first reply that this kinda stuff is everywhere and needs to be recognised as being pervasive?
I guess there's more and a different conversation to be had about
- Are 'wholesome games' particularly bad for this among games?
- why is that?
- what is the solution?
but imo this is different from corralling any talk of orientalism to wholesome games (I don't think you're doing this! FWIW, I'm just saying we shouldnt!)
not trying to pick a fight here or anything. just elaborating.
I get it but I think this is assuming that people don't talk about this in other contexts and...they do! I know I have and I know for sure Japanese people have. If you haven't seen such posts that's understandable but that doesn't mean those conversations aren't being had. We're just having this one about wholesome games right now because, well, that stream happened recently. But it's not the start or end of discussions of orientalism in games.
I;m really sorry but I'm not sure I understand what point you're making?
Echoing so many of the comments here saying thank you for writing on this. Don't let the folks saying otherwise or playing "devil's (in this case, racist) advocate."
Your first post put an issue I've had for a while into words. Your second brings up a good point that could be applied to pretty much all media that tries to use "foreign" cultural concepts. Great stuff 👍
i saw this post on my feed like, nine times and thought "ah good people are being normal about this" only to find out today that people are being very fucking not normal about this so uh
just wanna say this is a good post and it made me think.
someone here made a post a while ago (i forgot who...) like "all learn a mysterious language games are either orientalist or pro-cia or both" and i immediately thought of chants of senaar and heaven's vault off the top of my head and was like "yeah...yikes." (there are a few games i know of that aren't either but they're obscure little IF or Flash games)
as an asian person (not japanese tho) i gotta say the orientalist fetishizing from everyone everywhere is so goddamn tiring. yet another white person telling me they study japanese and want to go to japan because they really like anime.
also to other commenters, no, it is not exactly the same for how America treats non-American places...or how anyone treats places foreign to them...this is a pervasive issue SPECIFICALLY toward Asia, that's why it's called orientalism (How the West sees the East). It manifests in very specific ways.