☆Mirai★

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星のミライ

she/they

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☆Mirai★@mirai7/21/2023, 7:35 AM

Kay @Kayin

Faye @FayeOkay7/20/2023, 8:22 PM

the use of "they" for binary trans people: some perspective

there's a strange way in which supposedly progressive cis allies fall behind clueless every day folks with no knowledge of transgender issues. namely, the use of binary pronouns is gatekept behind request - but only for people they can tell are transgender.

let's talk about why using "they" is a fantastic idea, and why more people are using it more often, and also where using it ranges from rude to casually transphobic.

Kissy @Kishi7/20/2023, 11:27 PM

I don't see this phenomenon get talked about much, but it's the cause of a lot of pain, for reasons many would-be allies don't even seem to realise.

The logic from a sympathetic cis perspective seems to be that they/them is the "safe" option that's fair to apply to everyone until you've received confirmation. The issue is that "everyone" doesn't really mean everyone: by and large, only people clocked as some flavour of trans are treated this way. So if someone is binary trans, defaulting to they/them just communicates, "I see you're trans. No, you don't pass." And placing the onus on the trans person to clarify is humiliating—because, again, the same is not demanded of cis people.

Auto-piloting to they/them when you clock someone as trans is no more correct than if you did the same upon detecting someone is cis. If the concern is the trans person might use they/them unbeknownst to you, consider this: the exact same "risk" exists with the person you presume to be cis. So that's no case for treating the two differently.

I've been asked whether it's also insulting to ask someone's pronouns in the same kind of situation. Of course, if someone appears before you presenting all gender-conforming traits, from hair to clothes to voice to anything else—things that didn't just happen by accident—and your response to all that is "So what are your pronouns?" then yes, you have done the same harm as in the other case.

Treat people the way that's actually equal, not just the way that feels like you'd be the least wrong in all possible scenarios. And if you do get it wrong with me (actually they/them), I will correct you with no hard feelings. Before writing this, I talked it over with several people who sincerely heard us out, and it's meant the world to me, and it'll mean the world to me if anyone reading these posts does the same.

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in reply to @FayeOkay's post:

fingerless @fingerless7/21/2023, 8:12 AM

AliceAvizandum on twitter has "she/her, or they/them if you're mad at me" in her bio due to the countless times that happens to her.

Faye @FayeOkay7/21/2023, 11:05 AM

reminds me of the satire headline along the lines of "non-binary person comes out as trans woman to receive they/them pronouns"

in reply to @Kishi's post:

Mightfo @Mightfo7/21/2023, 4:03 PM

definitely fully agree on the "they do this for trans but not cis people, thats whack" and on cis people lazily relying on "they" in situations when they really shouldnt, cis genderconforming people can definitely do better

any approach is going to be high risk, so i'd like to emphasize that making an earnest, attentive, fair effort is probably the most important aspect.

also, i think a lot of the thrust of this post relies heavily on "does it ALL point in one direction?" so that should be even more emphasized-- just really noticing what someone is focused on thrusting at and using that to help distinguish binary trans people from other queer people. but im also not sure i can trust cis people to even gauge that though, like i feel like they're gonna see 60% of someone's noticable decisions be fem and then miss that everything else is a mixed or they'll be off in some other weird way. i dont know if cis people understand intent enough to make that work often enough

but maybe i dont need to be that concerned about cis peoples inaccuracy and for most cis people its the best advice, idk. its weird for me because going by "signals"/expression im very likely to be misgendered, so "ask" is the only real solution for me offline but a sizable % of people hate that approach so idk. but im also both genderfluid and usually a femboy so i am almost maximally set up to be fucked lmao, probably not reasonable to optimize around my case

i feel like this is pretty complicated and ive seen this discourse a lot on reddit, with people arguing back and forth about whether "its better to just default to they" "its better to just ask always" "its better to try to just assume someone is going to try to be binary and only go for 'they' if they're super mix-y" etc, but ive never walked away from this type of conversation with much comfort on what should be done. a lot of it boils down to numbers games of "what is a better approach for most people, and whats the ratio of nonbinary people to binary anyway" and arguing about what is actually upsetting(ie degree of being bothered by being asked vs degree of being bothered by being they'd vs degree of being bothered by being he/she'd etc).

defaulting to they sucks for binary people and others, defaulting to asking sucks for some people, defaulting to trying to read expression sucks for especially 'gnc' people(ie "stone butch" women and "high fem" femboys) and some nonbinary people. so i guess "try to scan for Very Strong Intent and otherwise use they or ask if intent doesnt seem unidirectional enough", like you laid out, is maybe the best hybrid approach. but like i said before, the most important aspect is to utilize an approach fairly and attentively, and being chill if you mess up

its also maybe contextual- if youre in a space with a lot of nonbinary/'gnc' people, ask more i guess? otherwise if youre in a very cis space, try to avoid making someone feel singled out and clocked?

anyway im fully open to possibly being wrong or wildly offbase here, those are just my thoughts/feelings

Faye @FayeOkay7/21/2023, 4:24 PM

yeah for sure! it's gets really messy with more complicated gender expression. i wish cis people were better about looking at what's on purpose and what's not. i think your points are really thoughtful.

i'd like the norms to be better - my partner is in a weird spot with gender vs presentation due to all sorts of complicated reasons. it's just, cis people 'theying' binary trans folk - but never cis(/passing) people kinda doesn't help anyone aughgh. it sounds like you're also in an unusual spot, and your ideas sound good to me about context of the group mattering a TON - fully agree.

also agree that there's a heavy emphasis on like "where do all signs point?". i know that even among cis people i have a dead easy set of gender stuff, so in part this post is me venting because of people treating me like i'm hard to gender when, uhh, i'm more fem than a lot of cis women lmao.

some kinda hybrid approach kinda rules too, and again, i just want fairness y'know? rather than cis people taking a wholly different tact for other people they perceive as cis and like... my dumb ass in a cute dress being singled out as a weirdo.

obviously how we get the best for binary trans folk AND gnc folk and enbies is like a whole other thing that society has to get better at that feels, like, tangential to just treating trans women like women etc. sorta outside the scope of my post but i appreciate that there's a lot more going on that cis people gotta figure out.

it's just wildly frustrating when cis people that prob don't understand trans issues at ALL do better than allies who are aware of enbies but like... treat enbies -and- binary trans people weird and make their lives more like swimming in treacle. ugh!!

thanks for this, though.

Mightfo @Mightfo7/21/2023, 4:57 PM

thanks for the response and understanding feelings and stuff!! i dont have much to add but yeah, i agree and especially about like the #1 thing is just cis people applying things unevenly and making other wonky decisions, i totally see where you're coming from and stuff.