nova-moth

Weird Hypno-Diaper Moth

  • she/it

30+, ΘΔ &, ABDL/hypno/other things account. Into many odd things. I hope you stay anyway~


cathoderaydude
@cathoderaydude

always thinking about the concept of a "clone" in videogame discussions. partially because i've been walking around for about a decade thinking about the claim that there was a "flood" of "doom clones" after 1993, a phenomenon that, as far as i can tell, simply did not occur - but was so anticipated, given recent history, that pundits simply imagined it into existence. every time a new game came out, for almost 20 years - preceding the careers of many of these writers - it was followed by a flood of "unabashed clones," so it was simply assumed that this would happen with doom as well.

watching jeff gerstmann play balloon fight, and he opens by asserting that it's a joust clone. can't argue with this, it's definitely a joust clone. the question is, do we apply this term to any other form of art?

in a sense we do so - movie reviews have always been willing to say something is "like a mix between [movie a] and [movie b]," but it's interesting that in the videogame industry, specifically, we'll point at a specific title and say "that game invented a genre, and now everything based on its mechanics will stand in its shadow and get an asterisk next to their names unless they cross some unspecified and unknowable threshold."

Symphony of the Night, by virtue of coming out a decade after Super Mario Bros., avoided being called a Mario Clone, but it's wild to think that it was only the time factor that guaranteed that, since there's no amount of altered or superseded mechanics that quantifiably lifts the velvet rope and allows a game to pass into the hall of Original Works. and i feel like we just don't apply that level of criticism to much else.


DecayWTF
@DecayWTF

The one that has stuck with me for decades now is Wonder Boy/Adventure Island. I'm betting a fair number of people haven't played it but it's a side-scrolling platformer released in 1986 and honestly a pretty fun one that has some neat mechanics like starvation that 2D mascot platformers generally didn't have and still don't. Anyway, it was a fairly unique game, which was roundly declared a clone of Super Mario Bros.

It is basically nothing like Super Mario Bros. It is a little bit more like Mario than SotN is, but not much. I don't think anyone would assert these days that Adventure Island is a Mario clone but that's because we have terms like "mascot platformer" now. It only got to be a real boy once there was enough brightly-colored side-scrolling platformers to be a genre.

I don't have any better insight into why this happens than Gravis does but there's an interesting wrinkle where some whole genres get the asterisk forever like Metroidvanias and Roguelikes, and some don't, like mascot platformers or rail shooters.


auramgold
@auramgold

i think it's interesting in a lot of those cases where they get stuck with the asterisk as a genre name forever, people still eventually think of it less as a clone.

i know a lot of people (myself included) who would consider themselves "fans of roguelikes" who have never even played Rogue, so "oh all these games you like are rogue clones" really doesn't have any negative connotation in that context

plus, with "roguelike" in specific, i think people act like proximity to the original is a status symbol, something to gatekeep based on, rather than the reverse of "it's too similar to mario to like". a lot of "roguelike fans" will literally say that because something is too different from rogue, it's inherently lesser, only a "roguelite" (see: the best hard drive article ever written, Roguelike Genre Purist Hopes Someone Will Develop a Roguelike Someday)

it's really interesting how different genres treat this idea of conceptual proximity differently


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in reply to @cathoderaydude's post:

I say the only game that truly qualifies as a Doom Clone is Chex Quest, and everything else that gets that label I could talk for at least an hour about everything that makes it notably different from Doom.

I've been thinking this post at work (as one does) and I think most of this is just a lingering effect of games culturally being a product - like a toy - first, and only relatively recently are people really trying to challenge that.

Also, we're really not great at coming up with genre names. "Immersive sim" means "a first-person shooter, but you can talk to people and decide the five Ws and How you want to shoot stuff". But if I say "yknow, like Deus Ex" that's assuming you're old like me and have played the same stuff.

Games criticism is so weird in general, and I kinda hope it's more than just "gamers are children", but...

As a fighting game fan this is such a constant issue. People just kinda think if there's 2 characters facing each other and a life bar it's basically Street Fighter unless it passes the violence threshold to just be Mortal Kombat

Symphony of the Night, by virtue of being part of the Castlevania franchise, avoided being called a Mario Clone due to being barely comparable in formula to the Super Mario Bros. games, except for their 2D side-perspective and the platforming elements within the levels. Sonic The Hedgehog would fall closer to being a Mario Clone.
This type of discernment goes into the root of games comparison and while the over-time element counts toward it, it comes rather as ancillary to the refinement and evolution of the media as entertainment form.

My read of this is that if you can explain the core gameplay concept in a few words, the genre name becomes that, but if it's too complex for that, it's named after the first or first-once-popular game that had that mechanic. So doom clones were just all FPSes until someone named the genre first person shooters, but roguelikes and metroidvanias can't be compressed like that.

but I think core to this is that a lot of the game press back then were like, programmers, and not really critics from other fields, so weren't really thinking genre except in a university undergrad kind of way until games weren't seen as a joke -- by 1997 I think they were calling Jedi Knight II an FPS

Balloon Fight is something of a special case in that when it started development it literally was just a port of Joust. And even then it has the Balloon Trip mode which is basically a whole other game