orchidrabbit

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there's something that's been floating around in my brain lately with different ttrpg systems and one thing that i feel really splits the genre down the middle is the idea of the "asymmetrical" play between the GM and the players. obviously when someone is sitting in the Game Master seat in any capacity, they hold a lot of the narrative cards that exist within the game that is being played. what i'm talking about is something different.


one of the first ttrpgs i learned how to play was dungeons and dragons, as is for a lot of other people. breaking this game down to it's core mechanical rules, the GM has two jobs, arbitrating the difficulty check (DC) level of the challenges presented to the players and controlling non-player characters (NPCs), which use stat-block sheets that outside of specific unique things that add challenges to the situation and don't often use the player classes, are nearly identical to a player's character sheet. so, by the logic here, a DnD dungeon master uses in and abouts the same tools that players use to interact with the game. NPCs roll for their own stat checks, use their own weapons, have to face up against DC checks, etc. DnD to me feels like something quite easy to understand when trying to learn it because outside of really specific situations, both players and DMs are operating under the exact same set of rules. nothing is asymmetrical about the play that is presented by the game. this is nothing to speak about houserules/homebrew/rules changes that people can introduce and the flavor they can add to make interacting with the mechanics of DnD more unique, i'm talking strictly about what we think about when someone says DnD.

i present the above about DnD to contrast with cypher system/numenera. this system radically alters the position of the GM within the setting of the game. players make a character and character sheets based on the [blank] is a [blank] who [blank]s format, in which players choose a focus, a type, and descriptor to fill in those blank areas. within this, each of those three things contribute "moves" and abilities that players can use against NPCs and situations. when a player character wants to use these abilities or take damage, they instead spend/drain points out of their three stat pools: might, speed, and intellect. NONE of this carries over into what the GM does. the GM is again the arbiter of difficulty levels of tasks, much like the Dnd DM, but when it comes to NPCs and other situations, NPCs have hit points (HP) and all other situations are resolved through the narrative. there are absolutely no "stat blocks" that a cypher system GM needs to consult or look at, they can judge the difficulty of a situation based on what is happening in the story. the tldr on this is a player "makes a cypher system character" and uses the "rules" presented on that sheet and the GM makes scenarios that have pure numerical value that the players must contend with. everything else is just narrative flavor. cypher system requires that you change the way you think about how to play mechanically complex ttrpgs so the learning curve is a little high for all people involved in a game, however i think that the difficulty of the GM side of the game is mitigated a little bit by the asymmetrical gameplay since they are not bound by the rules of the "statblock" (especially not having to manage a myriad of combinations of focus, types, and descriptors) and can run things in a more free form or fluid way.

i don't know if one of these methods of play are better than the other. they have their strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day these are mechanics as a means to an end to play a game and, if youre like me, to tell a story collaboratively.

ive been watching a lot of videos about board games and people playing board games, which ttrpgs branch from obviously. there's plenty of games that have asymmetrical gameplay, either through hidden role stuff like coup or the thing board game, or games that straight up pit players against each other like sniper elite or whitehall. the thing about these asymmetrical systems is that the game itself is the arbiter of the rules, there is no GM managing how the game progresses. but then there's things like mafia, werewolf, or blood on the clocktower that requires that there's a GM/storyteller/rules arbiter there to deliver information and in a way a narrative due to the secret actions of the players. however their role is a strictly mechanical one, blood on the clocktower i think has the potential to push the role of the storyteller as close to something that can interact with player mechanics similarly, however their role, still exists to serve the player's actions the majority of the time. i think namely the way that these examples also differ is that they don't really have a lot of influence on the actual "story" of the situation of the game. these games don't have campaigns that the game runners can write and run, they might have formats and scripts and there might be an emergent narrative from the gameplay, but they serve a game before they serve a story.

ive talked a lot about board games, but i bring them but because they are so mechanically strict in order to "work" as a game. video games are similar in that way. they have strict systems that are defined by the mechanics, engine, code, etc. that prevent "incorrect" play so the systems facilitating the game do not break. ttrpgs are different because through the rules and the fact a person is arbitrating them and the story, there's a lot more "wiggle room" and space for allowances to temporarily break the game in a way that won't change a lot about the total game itself. think about how missing a "draw" phase in a board game could mess up the entire flow because a card is now missing from play vs. a DM telling a player that they'll allow them to use their piece of bread to solve the current problem, even if it's silly and logically shouldn't work.

i'm talking about this at all because i am trying to make ttrpgs, or at least ive made one ttrpg system and have used it for multiple games at this point. it is asymmetrical in it's design and functions similarly to cypher system in a way, but i do want to appease the people that know dnd as their probably only other system so theres parts of it in there for them too.

the challenge i keep seeing with all types of symmetrical or asymmetrical play is how the mechanics of either system work with each other. symmetrical play creates i guess a "parallel" experience in that all mechanics align with each other, with the mechanics interacting and intersecting at different points. asymmetrical play creates a naturally adversarial or opposing force. the kind of combative attitude between DMs and players has been a meme or a trend of sorts over the years and people can approach a game however they want, but i feel like thats a fundamentally wrong approach. games of all kinda should be challenging or present some kind of challenge but the nature of game design is making it so the challenge is still approachable and there's fun to be had in overcoming odds.

what im wholly concerned with is creating systems, mechanics, and games that are fun to utilize for both players and GMs and i feel like the asymmetrical approach is a little bit better for facilitating that due to the natural power imbalance of the player vs GM. i don't know if i've "cracked it" yet but by looking at all of these game systems and how the mechanics of the rules arbiter and the players interact with each other is probably the learning approach to take.

if you've read this far, do you have any ttrpg recommendations to look in to or ones you've enjoyed where the mechanics are symmetrical or asymmetrical? or just really different kinds of ttrpg systems with GMs and how their mechanics are totally different than dnd?


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in reply to @orchidrabbit's post:

Assuming you want to keep it to games with someone in a Gamemaster role, some ones that play with asymmetry include:

  1. Powered by the Apocalypse (PbtA) - I am not super familiar with these games (I ran Masks a couple sessions in a break between other games), but players and GMs have specific and different moves they can make. And at least in theory, you shouldn't be taking actions outside of those moves.
  2. Forged in the Dark (FitD) - Similar to PbtA games, the GM's actions are different from the player's. I want to say that like Numenera it also restricts dice-rolling to the players.
  3. Ryuutama - I don't personally like the implementation, but part of setting-up an adventure or campaign is the GM picking a "character class" for themselves that gives them specific narrative incentives or moves that facilitate the kind of story the table wants to play out.

thank you for the recs! and irt your insight in jama's comment is also very good since i was just judging dnd from the 5e perspective since thats all i have the familiarity with. these are all good resources to look into.

A lot of smaller TTRPGs feel Asymmetrical, from what I've read through. The only ones closest to symmetrical I can think of are D&D, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, and maybe LANCER?

Edit: I wonder how much of the Symmetrical style comes from D&D's history in wargaming, then stuff like Shadowrun and World of Darkness mimicing that to an extent when they released in the 80s/90s, and Pathfinder is just D&D 3.75.

Aside, Numenera is currently still my favorite TTRPG, so it's a delight to see it brought up somewhere else besides my posts.

Asymmetrical play is something I've been going more and more towards, after cutting my teeth on D&D since the early 00s. When you don't have to play by the same rules as the players, it feels way easier to design encounters that are interesting than if you have to design around a full statblock. This, of course, changes design space. You can't really do stuff like "Saving Throws" if the enemy doesn't have a save stat.

Also, just from personal experience, it's way snappier to run and get into a flow with. It does take a lot of adjustment from some players too though, because they may go "Hey that's not fair, I can't do that! That's not an ability I can learn!"

Also, just from what I've seen over the years, asymmetrical games tend to need the players to be more Proactive than Reactive. In D&D and Pathfinder, it's really easy for players to just sit back and wait for the next beat to come from the GM, but games like Blades in the Dark and Dungeon World need the players to help drive things.

On D&D's symmetry, it wasn't really there historically. While there are overlapping mechanics in OD&D, AD&D 1e and 2e, and Basic/Expert D&D, if you look at a creature stat-block for those editions you can see they weren't designed to be one-to-one characters. For example, monsters don't have ability scores since presumably you don't need to know things like their chance to open stuck doors when they mostly exist to be fought. Similarly, player characters lack morale scores while monsters have them because it's important to know when a monster might decide enough-is-enough and flee, but to force that onto a player would be robbing them of free choice. That kind of thinking is woven in-and-out of those editions in a bunch of places, but kind of haphazardly because they were haphazard games.

I think a lot of the symmetry entered D&D with 3e because a) there was a push toward games being as simulationist as reasonably possible in the 80s to early 00s, and b) symmetry in D&D specifically creates some opportunities. Along with removing the sense that the the game is adversarial (like r_m_ says), it builds player trust - if you as a player know the rules are the same for you and the DM, you can feel comfortable knowing if the DM is being unfair to your character. It also (theoretically) creates a path for a person to learn the rules from playing the game and then, once they feel confident, move into the DM role. Those are good things if the goal of your game is to grow a larger community.

It's interesting, then, that asymmetrical games are coming back into vogue as player/gm trust has been on the upswing. Years and years of bemoaning hostile DMs and the like have changed the mindset of a lot of people that you should be working together more, even f a game is lethal.

I honestly don't know if it's there yet. Or not for me, at least. I still have a remarkably difficult time convincing people to play anything that isn't D&D 5e or Pathfinder. I think it's for a lot of reasons - that blog that got passed around earlier hits on a few of them, like how folks want the experience of playing actual D&D - but I can't shake the feeling that it's also that folks don't trust the GM.

Which... I get it. Trust is hard. I think things are much better than the past. But I think there's a long way to go.

There is the whole GMless field that says "equal power is cool" and at most has a "facilitator" whose responsibility is to remember the rules. (a few off the top of my head – MFZ: Firebrands; i'm sorry did you say street magic; Dungeon + Dragon; Dream Askew)

Conversely I have a dream of an rpg system that's super asymmetrical. I.e., something where every mechanically interacting verb is role specific. Or close to it. Only trained fighters get access to combat mechanics. Only the character players can define the legends of the world. Only the gamehost and quartermaster can interact with the economy system. etc.

GMless games do exist in a different space so i didnt really talk about them, but judging how their objective mechanics can be should still be valuable so this is good to look into! my thing is that i defo want to be able to tell stories as the main storyteller, since i tend to write a lot of mystery stories and a main GM is more or less required to arbitrate the information about the scenario in order to lead the players on the correct path to the solution.
i am super honing in on that dream of yours though, where disconnected from the mechanics there is a list of things only certain players at the table can do and the GM has a limited overlap with the player class/choices would be very interesting for a semi symmetrical and semi asymmetrical approach.

You should check out what we’ve done in Triangle Agency! Demo is on itch.io. The GM’s control of the narrative is gamified through a currency in the system, and we invite GMs to approach the game as a person with a perspective and agenda. I think it points toward what you’re talking about here w/asymmetrical design.

i havent been able to look at it fully yet but triangle agency does have my interest for this reason! i do really like the GM to have a "presence" at the table rather than being just a rules and story arbiter. having an objective and motives really pushes this further in a way i want to explore!