pendell

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I use outdated technology just for fun, listen to crappy music, and watch a lot of horror movies. Expect posts about These Things. I talk a lot.

Check tags like Star Trek Archive and Media Piracy to find things I share for others.



upthorn
@upthorn

Update!

This post unexpectedly showed back up in my feed today, I feel the need to share some further findings made in comments, and clarify my intentions.

Original Post

It came to my attention earlier that the Dutch term for Major League Baseball is Honkbal Hoofdklasse.

Now, for English speakers, this is obviously humorous, because "Dutch is the closest language to English" so you would expect there to be more similarity between the phrases than ball and bal.

Particularly base and honk share exactly zero sounds with each other. Which immediately attracts my interest. It makes sense for the meaning of Major League to be composed equivalently by different words, but the names of sports tend to be somewhat less flexible between languages. Tennis is tennis is tenis is tennis is Теннис is tenis is 테니스 is tennis.

But sometimes different languages focus on different aspects of a sport when choosing what to name it. It is famously true that most languages felt the foot and ball parts of association football were most important, while American English and Japanese chose to focus on the part where this phrase is ridiculously shortened to soccer in Britain.

And, indeed, when it comes to baseball, Japanese highlights different aspects of the game than English does, choosing to render it as 野球 which could be rendered to English reasonably as field sphere, or unreasonably as meadow orb. But 球 is at least a common suffix for ball-based sports, so it is only changing the focus from the bases to the field. Indeed, even in English there was some historical disagreement on whether the primacy of importance lay in the running the bases part (baseball) or the hitting the ball with a stick part (stickball).

So did the people of The Netherlands decide to focus on a different aspect of the game when deciding how to refer to the sport in their language? For an answer, I needed to know what honk means. I decided to try the Nederlands version of Wikipedia.

Quoth wikipedia:

Honk

Honk kan verwijzen naar:


Vista-xmag.png
Bekijk alle artikelen waarvan de titel begint met Honk of met Honk in de titel.
Disambig-dark.svg
Dit is een doorverwijspagina, bedoeld om de verschillen in betekenis of gebruik van Honk inzichtelijk te maken.

Op deze pagina staat een uitleg van de verschillende betekenissen van Honk en verwijzingen daarnaartoe. Bent u hier via een pagina in Wikipedia terechtgekomen? Pas dan de verwijzing naar deze doorverwijspagina aan, zodat toekomstige bezoekers direct op de juiste pagina terechtkomen.

You probably don't need a translation to see that this is a disambiguation page. It turns out Honk can refer to: the Dutch musical "HONK!" (based on the ugly duckling), the Rolling Stones album "Honk", "Honk! magazine" (a defunct competitor to "Mad! magazine"), or honk as in honkbal.

Well that's no help. But it's also a bad sign in my search for meaning that the only item on the disambiguation page that isn't a media product named "Honk" is honk as in honkbal. I don't even know what part of honkbal the honk is, and it turns out that it's only used to refer to the part of honkbal that honkbal is named after?! That doesn't make any sense! You don't name a sport after a word that you made up out of whole cloth to name the sport after! At least not when you didn't invent the sport! And while baseball does have a history prior to American independence, I can find no mention of The Netherlands playing any role in the origin of the sport.

Okay, perhaps google can refer me to someone who knows about dutch etymology honk

Quoth etymologygeek.com:

Dictionary entryLanguageDefinition
honc Middle Dutch (dum)
honk Dutch (nld)(games) base (safe zone).
(somewhat, rare) home, place where one belongs, shelter.

Well, that's not super helpful, either. It can mean base (as in baseball), or, less commonly, home or shelter, and derives from honc in Middle Dutch no definition given. Now, it does make sense to use shelter to describe the bases in baseball. Which is precisely why they're called bases in English. A base is a location where one can shelter from an enemy, regroup, and make plans before launching further forays. But why use honk when you have the cognate basis right there? Also, this entry marks it's usage to mean "shelter" as rare, but does not so mark its usage in games. With no dates of attestation to judge by, would you not expect the less common usage to have derived from the more common one? Which leaves us at square one.

Perhaps wiktionary can help? Quoth wiktionary

Dutch [ edit ]

Etymology [ edit ]

From Middle Dutch honc , likely through Old Dutch from Proto-Germanic *hank- , *hunk- . Only has cognates in the Frisian languages...

Oh. Okay. So not only do we not know how it derives meaning, we basically have no other languages that we can compare it to for insights.

Or, in other words:

Me: Why is baseball called honkbal in Dutch?
The internet: Why is anything called anything, dude?

mifune
@mifune

Het grappige is dat als Nederlander het best goed te begrijpen is dat baseball vertaald wordt als honkbal, zeker door iemand uit 1900. Een honk is misschien wel een beter omschrijving als een plek om te rusten dan een basis, wat toch een beetje militair klinkt. Maar honk is wel een beetje een oude beschrijving voor een beschutte verzamelplaats.

Daarentegen is het misschien maar goed dat niet te veel mensen ons rare taaltje snappen. Het kan niet de bedoeling zijn dat iedereen snapt wat we in ons koude kikkerlandje aan het doen zijn.


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in reply to @upthorn's post:

We call it a honk bc we honk the air horns in a popoff when the baseball player reaches it /j

No but since I speak Dutch natively I figured I'd do some quick digging; I'll spare you guys the fantastic rabbit hole I just fell into, but long story short, the sport came here a little bit after 1900. The Dutch dictionary (the Van Dale, who's pretty much the Dutch answer to the Oxford Dictionary) stated that 'honk' was already in use as a word for a "safe zone in children's games" by 1898; https://www.ensie.nl/vandale1898/honk

Or even as early as 1864, according to the Dutch lexicographer I.M. Calisch's dictionary from that year; https://www.ensie.nl/nieuw-woordenboek-der-nederlandsche-taal/honk

The example that keeps coming up is the word being used to refer to safe zones in the game 'stuivertje wisselen' (I'd hazard 'penny swap' is a decent translation). From what I understand, this is effectively a game of musical chairs, except instead of chairs you use trees. The trees were safe zones, if you were at one you 'had honk' ('were at base', though it's literally translated as 'having base').

https://onzetaal.nl/schatkamer/lezen/uitdrukkingen/stuivertje-wisselen

Again I'll spare you the half hour of digging up some guy's life I just did, but the person that is rumoured to have brought baseball to the Netherlands, J.C.G. Grasé, seemed to have been a MAJOR proponent of outdoor sports in schools. It'd make perfect sense for him to therefore choose the word 'honk' in order to make the sport sound appealing to the youth, who'd be very familiar with the term and thus make the sport seem like an extension of the play they did in their spare time.

This is all very rough research with at best a few primary sources to strengthen my assumptions of there not being more than one J.C.G. Grasé in the Netherlands at the time, and the definitions and dictionary results I grabbed from the web and not the actual dictionaries in question, so this relies on those websites accurately reflecting the source material, but it's the best I can do and seems to make sense.

There's also an alternative explanation on the Discussion page of the Dutch Wikipedia entry on baseball, which claims the game comes from Twente, a region in the east of the Netherlands, from like, the year zero. Apparently, the Tuihanti tribe that lived there played a game very similar to baseball, with the bases called 'baests', or 'beasts'. This is honestly a fascinating argument, the problem is that this is part of an article someone took from (presumably) a scientific journal and posted on the Internet without any reference to the name of that journal, only stating this article was a response from the Nr. 9 issue of 'last October', though no mention of the year. It does quote two works as sources, "Tubanters, Tukkers, Twenten; 10.000 jaar geschiedenis van Oost-Nederland" from J. Klein Mastelink in 1997, and "Al Het Goede Komt Uit het Oosten; de Geschiedenis van Honkbal" by P. Kosterink, 1999. The problem is that I can't find Mastelink anywhere online, and though I can find a P. Kosterink who has written several articles on science related to outdoor sports, I can't find any mention of that particular work. So obviously take take that with a Carthage of salt, but it's too fascinating to not mention.

You can find the full excerpt on the discussion page of the Dutch Wikipedia article on baseball here; https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg:Honkbal

TL;DR 'honk' was already used to refer to safe bases in kids' games, guy wanted the game to appeal to kids, used that word. That, or the game originated from the rural Eastern Netherlands in like 0 A.D. Can't find the primary sources cited in favour of the latter one though.

Etymologiebank is another good resource for this stuff. multiple sources there seem to claim it derives from the same root as 'hoek' (angle, corner; compare to English 'hook'), but in a nasalised form. that seems plausible enough to me.

Another fun little tidbit: it seems the phrase "hunky-dory" derives from the Dutch word "honk", probably via kids immigrating and continuing to play their games

that is a tantalizing possibility, what with Twente being neighbors with the Saxons, who very well could have brought it to Britain a few hundred years later. Then there's like a thousand year gap in the record before the earliest record of it being played in Britain lol.

I do agree that it's a ludicrous claim on its own, but at least it isn't impossible for once.

and uh so of course having invented the game out of whole cloth, including something close to the modern name, the Dutch of course call it honkbal now. lol

in reply to @mifune's post:

"where this phrase is ridiculously shortened to soccer in Britain."

...was shortened to soccer, in the late 1800s, to disambiguate that particular set of newly codified rules of the game (which disallowed picking the ball up) from those variants which ultimately went on to be called rugby.

You will not hear it called soccer in contemporary British use.

I'd argue that the it's the phrase, rather than the abbreviation, that fell out of use--it's no longer called soccer in Britain because it's no longer necessary to disambiguate association football from other forms.

Well, yes. Association football came to be simply be called "football", and the other offshoots of the pre-rules-codification game lost that particular linguistic race.

Unlike, say, contemporary America, where the game is normally called soccer to distinguish it from what everyone apart from Americans calls "American football"; which is why it's strikingly odd to hear "soccer" referred to as if it's a contemporary British term.