• they/them

plural system in Seattle, WA (b. 1974)
lots of fictives from lots of media, some horses, some dragons, I dunno. the Pnictogen Wing is poorly mapped.

host: Mx. Kris Dreemurr (they/them)

chief messenger and usual front: Mx. Chara or Χαρά (they/them)

other members:
Mx. Frisk, historian (they/them)
Monophylos Fortikos, unicorn (he/him)
Kel the Purple, smol derg (xe/xem)
Pim the Dragon, Kel's sister (she/her)


lookatthesky
@lookatthesky

specifically, i've been into math my whole life, and I've only recently begun studying earth sciences.

Both, I'd say, are in some sense "real", and have some level of bearing on our life. It's useful and interesting to study the physical phenomena that we can see in front of us and in the background of our world even when we don't think about them. It's also useful and interesting to study the commonalities that different systems can have, when they follow certain given rules and ideas.

Because of the way we can always see earth sciences happening in front of us, with their ever-fractal processes we will probably never fully understand, there's a sense of unknown we're always reminded of. Mathematics, inherently, is tucked behind the systems we know in some way. It's generally not directly in sight, and requires intention to notice. And it's typically considered a "rules-first" field, so its bounds are clearly defined - even if its consequences aren't.

In a sense they're not that different actually. Both mathematical systems and physical systems are ones we understand (at least well enough?) the most basic mechanisms of, at this point in history, with the abstraction-first, universalism-first mindset the West pursues with its science (or more likely, I've been deluded by that mindset into thinking we understand those mechanisms.) But both are concerned, deeply, with consequences of those systems so complex that they may never be understood. Systems that never stop spiraling out with their logic.

The difference only being that with physicality, you know the answer - you see lightning, you see the shapes of the plants in hot and cold regions and how they differ. But you don't know how that result came to be. We can guess what the answer to the Riemann Hypothesis is, but we can never know what the answer is unless we also know why.

The beauty of physical science is that the answer to "why" can be a partial one. Math asks you to know every detail, really. It requires of you to go through every single little step. Meticulously, carefully, even the most inconsequential little thing cannot be ignored. But physical science - there's so much of it that you'll never be able to understand it all. It forces you to have a big picture philosophy in some ways, at least sometimes. You have to skim over the details. You have to accept contradictions and illogic here and there. Accepting little unrealities for an ever-more-wonderful reality.


ireneista
@ireneista

we like that a lot

we collect ways of thinking, which means we wind up making a lot of comparisons like this. it's always nice to see someone else doing it <3


NireBryce
@NireBryce

aside: I also think some of this is university math education makes a lot of assumptions about what people know, but very little earth sciences are taught in public school anymore so they need to start at a much lower level.

(but also DK has a much different conclusion (and the data tells a different story) than is commonly mythologized)


pnictogen-wing
@pnictogen-wing

the further removed your field is from practical affairs—real matter and energy, real flesh and blood—the easier it is for fakers and frauds to assert themselves. money is the ultimate abstraction here, because the whole premise of "business" is that all things can be equated to a quantity of money, and that's an abstraction that stomps the entire Cosmos flat ~Chara

(EDIT: oh, I'll add this too about mathematics, which people tend to think of as something unreal and abstract—some of our knottiest problems in math have to do with practical things like packing geometric shapes into other shapes, and stuff like that. math can be tremendously abstract and yet the abstractions peep through everyday life at all times)


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in reply to @lookatthesky's post:

I think that your characterization of physical science in the last paragraph also applies to mathematics, in particular to the process of mathematical discovery. Not that I disagree with anything in your characterization of mathematics, but I'd say it's a separate process that usually follows discovery and thus only part of mathematics. It is still something quite unique to it, but I find it unfortunate that mathematics is often reduced to that, as the interplay between a heuristic discovery process and a more formal deductive verification process is something that I find really fascinating.

My views on this have been influenced by Imre Lakatos's book "Proofs and Refutations" which explores this topic and also the consequences of this for how mathematics is taught. I can only recommend it to anyone interested in the philosophy of mathematics!

I have begun to play somewhat with other, less proof based philosophies of mathematics over the past year or so. If you look here you'll see I've already acknowledged that the way I and many other people are accustomed to thinking about mathematics can often be far too rigid.

I enjoyed skimming through/reading bits of Ethnomathematics by Marcia Ascher, and found it a helpful resource for expanding my ideas of what math can be. I may look into the book you've recommended.

it's especially good because the mainstream understanding of the subject is typically limited to like, "the Egyptians invented fractions", "the Romans didn't believe in zero", "different cultures use different base systems". This book goes far beyond merely talking about how cultures interface with numbers, and even when it talks about cultural number systems it delves into details normally not talked about— their reasonings for why their system makes the most sense, subtractive bases, and many other things I'm certainly forgetting. on top of, you know, not having a modern West centric viewpoint and not describing concepts as "invented" or putting them into a linear progression.

in reply to @NireBryce's post:

i think some of it also comes down to like... math doesn't really tell you how to think in general, just how to think about math, and the sciences require way more collaboration with outside fields.

but yeah. every field thinks differently and it's fascinating, though I do wonder how much of that is education/tradition and how much is broader exposure.

plenty of mathematicians are "good" in those ways, but a lot seem to have only developed it by chance

buuuuuuut I also think saying math has rigid rules is unfair to math, because the parts of the field that aren't learning technique are mostly fucking around until you find something out. leading edge mathematics is a lot more experimental and scientific method than people think imo.

tied with physics and computing, it's the field with the most proofs written on napkins

yeah, i think math isn't necessarily doing a bad thing here -- it would take so long to make sure everyone has a solid footing.

but the pre-uni schools very much aren't thanks to defunding and the ways we teach math for standardized testing (and the ways we teach math in schools)

in reply to @pnictogen-wing's post:

oh for sure. I feel like there's a lot of mystification and deliberate obfuscation of math in Western society, side by side with an attitude that "real math" is merely arithmetic (for counting money) and anything weirder is egghead stuff that's not quite real

there was a definite Republican political movement in earlier decades to suppress abstract mathematical knowledge ("New Math") in grade-school education, and that template's been followed with subsequent moral panics about other subjects that (according to right-wing politicians) are merely "confusing" to kids and therefore shouldn't be taught