• they/them

plural system in Seattle, WA (b. 1974)
lots of fictives from lots of media, some horses, some dragons, I dunno. the Pnictogen Wing is poorly mapped.

host: Mx. Kris Dreemurr (they/them)

chief messenger and usual front: Mx. Chara or Χαρά (they/them)

other members:
Mx. Frisk, historian (they/them)
Monophylos Fortikos, unicorn (he/him)
Kel the Purple, smol derg (xe/xem)
Pim the Dragon, Kel's sister (she/her)


NireBryce
@NireBryce

in my mind, if you break a law, you broke the law and that's on you but doesn't make you fair game for retaliation.

but on a conversation about cycling, with drivers coming into the conversation like they do the intersection, it became clear:

a lot of people think that if you break a law, you're now morally fair game.

me: "as a driver, you still need to drive responsibly -- even if someone breaks the law, you're going to need to be prepared for it. that's like, a pre-requisite of being a driver under the law."
them: "they would be breaking the law. you're saying they can just ignore traffic laws. Why should I have to watch out for that?"


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in reply to @NireBryce's post:

yeah most people have a punishment-centric view of the law, where basically breaking the law means the social contract has now been forfeit. these people of course have no idea that they regularly break laws they've never even heard of on a day to day basis, because that's the reality of law.

I think a lot of people want that to be the case because they have power fantasies about Punishing Wrongdoers (which they imagine a valid substitute for Righting Wrongs). Which it's not, but these sort of fantasies are often unexamined. Vengeance is more appetizing than justice.

there's a visible subset of people who believe that pedestrians and cyclists deserve death for obstructing traffic in any way (sometimes, if the person is ignorant or simply doesn't like revised rules, even if they have a right to be there) and that feels immediately relevant here

hmmm. like systems of action may or even should be honed in order to create maximum consequences for anyone who dares to ever break a rule? where you point out that some behavior is intensely dangerous and leads to horrible consequences if someone momentarily fails to strictly adhere to the rules, and it turns out they already understand that and think it's desirable

lots of shit going on here and it's all bad 🙃

It’s the white/colonialist cop mentality. I’m obliged to defend “my” space with a deadly weapon, and as a driver the roads belong to me and my fellow drivers, not to the people I view as intruders on their own land.

no -- i don't know how to articulate it better than the replies to the above comments (which is badly) but I see something much higher level and abstract than that. that's a symptom but not the problem, which is that they see The Law as like, a thing that tells them what to do, and if people break the law, they never need to have planned for that contingency, because only lawbreakers would break the law.

Not being a responsible driver is just one example of it.

I think it's the other way around, though. The mentality about the law that you describe, which is very real, is overdetermined. For one, it's a symptom of a belief that the law was created by people who might be wiser than you are, but ultimately have your best interests in mind (the term "founding fathers" is revealing). It's easier to buy into that belief if you have something in common with those people, like your whiteness.

For another, it's a symptom of a belief that The Law is, somehow, natural, and not something humans built to protect and acquire more power. It seems to have fallen off a bit, but for a while, conservatives were talking about the Constitution and the Bible the same way. If I just have to believe in the Constitution and the Bible to be saved, or to be protected from (for example) imprisonment, then why would I be obliged to respect anyone who refuses to make that simple choice?

It also symptomatizes a commitment to "lawbreaker" and "law-abider" as identities that aren't contingent on actions, which explains why, as Amy said, a lot of these people actually break the law all the time. I would take it even further than what Amy said: to them, going 100 mph on a 65 mph freeway is okay, whereas rolling through a stop sign on a bike is not, because I believe in the law (which I can say because I know my own faith / mind / intent), but they are lawbreakers (which I judge based on their actions, not their intent). It's a little like people saying "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns": one of the axioms behind that is, "Because I am a Good Guy(tm), it's impossible for me to do anything bad with a gun." And there's an obvious analogy between that binary, and other binaries that affect whether you get to be treated as a full person or not and are assumed to be based on innate qualities. (I think @Quidam's comment below is making a similar point.)

Those three things might seem to be incompatible with each other to some extent, and they are, but if anything, that only makes them stronger.

I'm also thinking about the time I was trying to explain the Kayla Moore story to some bro in my EMT class a few years ago, starting from "police busted into her house to do a wellness check and killed her", and he interrupted with "was she doing something stupid?" I think "doing something stupid" there and "breaking the law" here have similar functions. As you said, to the people we're talking about, it means "I don't have to watch out for that, or anticipate what to do in that case." My classmate might have meant, "well, if she was doing 'something stupid', all bets are off and I don't need to think about what happened next", or he might have meant "if she was doing 'something stupid', she deserved to be executed for it." But actually, I don't think those statements are all that different, at least functionally. The consequence of both of those meanings is, "She was in a class of people I don't need to care about or extend protection to; or expect others to care about and protect." Drivers don't tend to apply the "lawbreaker" thing to young children, right? People do drive recklessly and run over five-year-olds, but rarely do you hear someone defend it with "that five-year-old should have obeyed the law." Most people would at least say that all children deserve protection (even if they don't act like it). So I really think that "they're a lawbreaker, so I don't need to plan for that" is a statement about who does and doesn't deserve protection, about who I do and don't have obligations to (whether that's paying attention when driving, or thinking before I fire my gun when working as a cop), even if it seems like a more basic logical error.

I think it's more zoomed out than that, though metastasizes into what you're describing in a lot of them. it's as if law were declarative and them having consequences happening because someone else broke the law just isn't a thing that enters their mind.

Hmm. I was about to say this is retributivism, but the truth is, this might be more a social contract thing: once you have broken the contract, you are no longer part of the community, and once you are not part of the community, all is fair game. You have "humanity" only insofar as you are part of the group. I think that is also how these people justify violence committed on homeless people.