psilocervine

but wife city is two words

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cohost (arknights)
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Bigg
@Bigg
Sorry! This post has been deleted by its original author.

lexyeevee
@lexyeevee

here is what leafo said on discord:

(re someone asking about the email and this particular post)

Looks like they shared the entire notice we sent to some accounts. I don't have anything else to add on top of that as I think it accurately describes the situation.

...

When you opt your account into our payouts system, you are asking us to take on the liability of selling your work on all of our merchant accounts, payment processing services, etc. As described in the email, there are many factors that contribute to the risk associated with running an account for someone. Our goal is to enable the most creators to use our service as possible. However, when a seller knowingly shares content that may pose potential issues, it becomes unfair to the rest of the creators we serve.

I try to avoid mentioning revenue share in these types of discussions, as we aren't asking people to set their rev share to anything specific to get access. But, the arrangement I described above can be especially disheartening when many of these sellers also set their rev share to 0. I'm fairly sure the devs are very much aware of the risks and are purely taking advantage of the situation. It's a lose-lose situation for itch.io. Unfortunately that leaves us in a tricky position and we sometimes need to make the difficult decision about what accounts are eligible for certain features.

Hope that gives you some clarity about our process.

(when asked if any particular revshare would resolve the problem)

Please re-read my message. We are not asking accounts to set their revshare to anything specific.


so here is what it smells like is happening, to me:

itch is already in a precarious position due to acting as, essentially, porn laundering — you can't sell explicit stuff through paypal, but you can slap it on itch and have people buy it through paypal there

so i'm guessing they had to jettison a relatively small number of devs for a combination of reasons, which i speculate could include

  • only having nsfw games
  • disproportionately many chargebacks (something porn is infamous for, big reason merchants hate it)
  • having low revenue share
  • themes that a guy in a suit somewhere may find dubious
  • god knows what else

in which case there... can't... really be a clear line, because the line is just "is worth the risk to collect payments for". even if there were a line that were somehow quantifiable, at best that would get them to "the risk we've determined these devs pose is exactly balanced out by how much money they give us" which is still not great

again i don't actually know anything beyond the quotes above (and leafo has not commented either way on any of my speculation), but this makes the most sense to me. it is not an ideal situation, but i trust leafo enough to assume there are multiple conflicting forces and it is infeasible to explain them all publicly

it certainly doesn't look at all like itch is ending all adult game sales. i mean, it would be completely ridiculous to do that by emailing one dev at a time


Bigg
@Bigg

Like, I read @leafo's post and understand it, but without actual communication on what particular themes might be disallowed or what rev share might put you on the chopping block, this still makes Itch feel like a much much less hospitable place for nsfw content than any of us thought it was a day ago. I appreciate that making arbitrary decisions based on a number of soft factors is probably a lot easier for leafo and the platform, but now it feels like I've got a gun to my head and no idea what I have to do to keep the trigger from being pulled.


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in reply to @Bigg's post:

it might take a good while to really die but it could start an unrecoverable tailspin if people see what they're doing and jump ship. something something it keeps happening

Wow, I thought itch was better than that (not that any companie is good or anything). Do you think they were pressured to make this change? Maybe not directly, but maybe they were scared because of a recent law? But I'm not trying to defend them.
I send you well-wshes, that is unfortunately all that I have

i wouldn't panic just yet based solely on

  • an email that doesn't say who it's about, what kind of games they made, or anything about what prompted this decision

  • a tweet that also doesn't say who received the email and only vaguely handwaves "many"

that's a lot of very conspicuous omissions and makes me suspicious that there's a more specific reason being left out

Also, bear in mind that the e-mails only seem to have started going out over the past few days, making it conceivable that many devs haven't made decisions or public statements of their own yet. The lack of communication around what standards have supposedly been violated is, surprise, another not very good thing!

if this were a sweeping policy change then it would make no sense to do it one dev at a time via support staff (which i suspect is like, two people) and not tell anyone what's going on. they could easily patch the site itself to tell you all this if you use "pay itch first" + have nsfw games

something else must be going on, and it sucks that we don't know what it is, but it's quite a few leaps to go from this to "itch is banning all adult game sales (but not saying that for some reason)" and tbh i think it's deeply irresponsible of perverteer to state that like it's a known fact

To be clear, it's at least Perverteer, Feyada, and a 3rd creator (can't find the tweet, think the name was Black-something) which, combined with the fact that there hasn't yet been any official response from Itch on Twitter or their forums despite them being asked about it repeatedly, is enough to make me nervous

I'd very much like for this to not be an actual exclusionary policy, I like using Itch, but it's also wicked condescending to act as though there's no cause for alarm here

in reply to @lexyeevee's post:

I don't really think opaquely and semi-randomly booting some creators is meaningfully different than banning porn entirely, whether that pressure is coming from payment processors or not. The policy as written is "you must comply with all the policies of the payment processors", which taken literally means "you must not sell any adult content". That's a porn ban, even if it's lightly enforced.

so... what? what alternative are you proposing? itch just flips off paypal with both hands and rides off into the sunset? they are already functionally doing that. it might even be the problem

If I were them, I'd be looking to loop in a payment processor that actually allows adult content, and instituting a system that gives creators three options:

  • Non-adult content, itch.io payout w/all the puritan payment processors
  • Adult content, itch.io payout w/adult payment processor only
  • Any content, direct payout, on your head be it

I agree they're in an awkward position, but I also think coyly claiming to allow adult content while at the same time banning in the TOS was a terrible strategy from the word go. They let it get to this point knowing this would happen eventually.

Does such a processor actually exist? From what I understand (talking out my ass about something I heard from someone else probably talking out their ass a few years ago), there structurally can’t be one, because explicitly allowing adult content may actually cause the other processors and banks to refuse to do business with them. So everyone has to say “nope not allowed” and the best you can do is be selectively blind about it.

So in that case, being like “here’s where all the adult content transactions are going” is inviting a giant ban hammer from one or another entity. The best you can do is mix it in to one big transaction pool and be like “hey I can’t catch all of them” and deliberately not try to catch them.

I'm not an expert by any means, but a quick search for "adult friendly payment processors" definitely turns up results. Despite all the crackdowns, internet porn is still a huge business—presumably they get paid somehow.

Sex worker and erotic gamedev here. (The worst of both worlds lol.) There are payment processors that handle adult/"high risk" content. CCBill and Verotel immediately spring to mind. There are others. The problem is SESTA/FOSTA and the continued laundering of Christian Fundamentalist talking points from the likes of The New York Times conflating sexuality with trafficking. We're losing a PR war that fuels MasterCard's growing interest in owning the nascent Age Verification industry.

what payment processor? i feel like i had reason to find one myself some years ago and i don't think i ever did. the best solution i've ever heard of has been "fly under paypal's radar".

i guess Actual Porn (and onlyfans) must be using something. hell if i know what it is, but there must be a reason no one else seems to use it

they don't ban in the TOS. they allow it and say "paypal has policies too i guess, wink wink". which is true. and then they've acted as a buffer all this time, which is rather cool of them. and even if they couldn't sell it, they'll still host it

i don't know, it seems like they've done the best i would know how to do since the beginning. and we don't even know for sure if third-party policies are factoring in


update: i checked out ccbill and while their website sure doesn't make it easy to find, their adult pricing fee is 10.8% – 14.5%. which is at least twice their "high risk" fee. and i don't know if merchant accounts really appreciate being one of several options. so there are certainly some compelling reasons to go through paypal/stripe if at all possible

Quoting the email above:

As a reminder, per our Terms of Service, your account's activity must comply with the Terms of Service and Acceptable Use Policies of any third-party payment processors you utilize through your itch.io account.

Given that all the available payment processor TOSes ban porn, that's pretty clearly a ban on adult content in the TOS. Laundering it through a transitive reference doesn't change that, it just makes it more oblique.


If the only option for adult content is a 15% rake, then they should be up-front with their adult users about that. If the only option is a separate domain that only allows adult content, like subscribestar.adult does, then they should do that. Trying to ride under the radar and playing chicken with PayPal was never going to work long-term.

hang on — if you do payments through itch then you aren't using any payment processor through your itch account. that's why the reminder is in the email: because by switching away from payments through itch, you become beholden to the processor's terms.

we don't know what agreement itch has with processors, if any, but any of them could have very easily just asked itch to not accept any games with the "nsfw" box checked and that hasn't happened

we also don't know if the processors are involved in these recent decisions at all, so "itch should have done this" seems... premature

in fact you might reasonably speculate that it's the other way around — that itch gets away with this because it agreed to eat all the cost of chargebacks etc in exchange for processors backing off, and these specific devs are making that a bad deal for itch. in which case, again, there is no guideline they could possibly give

I think your read of the terms of service is incorrect. To quote them directly:

Publishers who distribute content on the Service for a [a word is missing here, I assume it's supposed to be "fee"] are subject to the acceptable use policies of the Company’s third party payment providers and processors, including but not limited to Stripe and PayPal.

That is, anyone who charges money on itch is subject to the processors' ToSes. I think the only reason they haven't been busted yet is that they've mostly flown under the radar (or been more profit than risk for the processors).

I agree that they're in a bad situation, and I have some sympathy for that, but the total lack of policy communication on itch's part makes me less inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, not more.

hm that's interesting and different from the email phrasing. and also incoherent. and is something itch could have enforced semi-automatically at any time, but... hasn't.

i don't know then. but i don't know how likely it is that they've simply flown under the radar this whole time either; itch isn't gigantic but it's not microscopic, either. it's been a long time for no one to have ever reached out in either direction

i also don't know why there's nothing mainstream that uses something like ccbill. the fees are high but like, you could pass that on to the individual seller, so it's not completely infeasible, but no one even seems to try and i don't know why

seems like there are a lot of gritty behind-the-scenes details that are never made public with any of this stuff, which makes it incredibly difficult to gauge what might be happening

i do hope they can say something more reassuring in the near future

also @bigg blocked me which seems to mean i no longer get notifications from this post and also it's difficult to actually find, jsyk

in reply to @Bigg's post:

the idea that they'd complain about "endagering our merchant account that all the other creators use :(" but also refuse to discuss what quantity of rev share makes it acceptible to do so, is kind of rotten. it's got that neo-HR flavor of "sounding sensitive and concerned while also being contemptuous and useless"

the language you quoted is explicitly "a lot of people are endangering the merchant account without contributing any rev share". everything has a cost-benefit analysis.

i didn't read it as cost-benefit analysis; i read it as "sometimes someone is more of a headache than we can really justify, and then i see they're asking us to do it for free"

i don't know how i'd put a dollar amount on that particular human emotion