psilocervine

but wife city is two words

56k warning


cohost (arknights)
cohost.org/arkmints

UnregisteredHyperCadence
@UnregisteredHyperCadence

no i will not dedicate 100+ gigs of ssd space to Bethesda game

it could be the best game ever made for all i care, if you can't respect my drive space, i'm not installing your game


Lizstar
@Lizstar

It genuinely feels like cost cutting laziness

I've seen people defend it for stuff like Baldur's Gate 3, going "Well it's a 40+ hour game, that's so much content! Plus voice lines and stuff!"

Mother Fucker, games weren't always like this. Persona 3 was 80+ hours and it was like a gig big. I've spent 3000 hours on EU4, and that's 6 gigs. Ogre Battle 64 is 50+ hours and that's like FOUR MEGABYTES. Why are we allowing games in the past year to not respect our drive space?


plumpan
@plumpan

I was looking at wipeout 3's files the other day and there's MAYBE 100 megs of actual game data in there, everything else is raw audio tracks and intro videos to fill out 600 megs or so. I think most of the big multi disk JRPGs are similar: miniscule game data and most of it is just video.

So what about modern games? I think most cutscenes are pre rendered now, does the actual 3d asset data take up THAT much space? Is it textures? Is it high quality audio files? What in the world are they doing that games take up so much space?

I would not be surprised if it's marketing at this point. Easiest way to get people to talk about your game is to make it fucking huge.


Ryyudo
@Ryyudo

An unconfirmed rumor/theory is kinda close to that!

If your disk space is all used up by games you're committed to playing for a long period of time (note: not even necessarily like), that means other games don't get added because there's not enough room.


Kayin
@Kayin

Textures. Well, and sound. But textures.

A 1024 x 1024 texture is 1,048,576 pixels.
A 2048 x 2048 texture is 4,194,304 pixels.
A 4096 x 4096 texture is 16,777,216 pixels

Basically a 4x jump in size each step.

More stuff just having 4k textures as the default basically means a 4x increase in texture disk space. Then add to that shit is so complexity of all these games and incredibly fast loading, it's way harder and way less essential for companies to be efficient with this stuff. Big left over textures, samey textures, unnecessary resolution for some background elements and all that. Even 4k packs for older games are much smaller because the amount of textures are just much less.

So textures that are on average, 4x the size (not that every 4K game has 4K Textures on EVERYTHING but GOD does it still add up) on like way way more assets and it gets huge super fast.

Granted things like Unreal Engine's nanite allowing really unoptimized photoscans with tons and tons of vertex data isn't great either for file size, but I feel like it's still almost always textures and audio.


fool
@fool

With audio in particular, uncompressed assets use less RAM and less CPU, and can start playing sooner, since you can basically stream them directly from the storage medium. Audio isn't the biggest part of install size bloat by a long shot, but the way it's implemented in audio is representative of the kind of tradeoffs being made in all other parts of the system design.

There's also the factor of: who's paying for the storage? Nintendo is a standout among AAA publishers for usually having comparatively low game sizes, because they manufacture their own Switch cartridges and anticipate enormous print runs, so they save money by ensuring they can fit into a smaller model. But with a PC game, it's the consumer who pays for the drive, so the developers, having no way to measure whether install size impacts sales, realize no observable benefit from optimizing for storage space, and therefore have no monetary incentive to try.

Modern software development methodologies regard developer effort as the costliest part of the process, since everything that adds complexity to the project not only increases the time that must be spent making it, but also the number of bugs (which are especially expensive to deal with in games) and the risk of the project falling behind or failing altogether. Therefore anything that makes developers' jobs simpler (not the same as easier) is preferred. Profligacy in the management of game assets is tolerated because it means that there's fewer dimensions of optimization for artists to worry about while drawing, fewer systems for programmers to create and maintain, fewer permutations for the build system to contend with, and so forth. All these problems tend to grow exponentially, so at the scale of a AAA video game, even a small decrease in complexity results in a big increase in feasibility.

More broadly, in software in general, the performance efficiency of software has tended to decrease over time. The reason for this is because most newly-made software is for commercial purposes, not for consumers, and in that context it's usually preferable to have something expensive to run sooner than to have something cheap to run later.

There's kind of a 90-10 split, where a small number of big programs manifest the overwhelming majority of the problem. This gets to be really noticeable when you operate a machine that's designed specifically for running those big programs.

Anyway, shit's complicated, but it's this way for systemic reasons, and the systems could be (and, in some places, demonstrably have been) structured differently and produce different results.


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in reply to @Lizstar's post:

hell, not just our hard drives, but our internet bandwidth as well; not everyone lives in places with decent internet! sucks a lot to finally download your 100GB game and one day be stopped because there's a 10-20GB patch.

I've already cleared out the drive space, and I'll be trying it out on Game pass, cause I ain't paying $70 Buckoids for a Bethesda release.

I do however agree with you on the drive space issues... Some people suggest that these games at least in part are being made so LARGE intentionally to force you to uninstall games and play theirs more.

I think it has less to do with cost cutting laziness and more to do with the fact that the entire industry is basically propped up on two general-purpose IDEs. If I create a new project in Unreal Engine, it's drive print is 8gb before I add a single mesh or character controller. There's so much there that I either won't or can't utilize, and stripping it all out for parsimony is likely to break more than it would improve. Of course Ogre Battle is leaner in all it's 65c816 asm sweetness, but at the end of the day it can only ever be Ogre Battle. If I'm making a tactical deck-building hentai fishing simulator in Unity and I feel compelled to add a fifth overlapping magisterium of cosmic horror, the net impact to my installation footprint is precisely dick.

Something I've noticed in the past few gens is a bunch of games that, if you isolate the gameplay assets, they are relatively small, but then you add in stuff like the prerendered CG cutscenes or the soundtrack and the filesize balloons 100x. One egregious example is FF7Remake which is 100GB and at least 70% of that is a few prerendered CG cutscenes. Not only did they not compress them at all, but also there's 4 different video files for each cutscene because they rendered different lipsynchs for each language with voice acting. I would at the very least like to have an option to only download the ones for the language I want, rather than all of them.

I wonder how much of that disk space is texture made extra detailed for 4k screen and if they could move that to a free downloadable content so you could choose half resolution at a quarter of the size

in reply to @plumpan's post:

a little of that is limitations inherent to the PS1. it only has 2 MB of system RAM and another 1 MB of video RAM. Even Crash Bandicoot 1 couldn't hold an entire level in memory at one time. But audio and video don't really hit memory for long, I think (uncompressed) CD audio doesn't need to hit memory at all and streams directly to the DAC for playback, and video only requires minimal processing (really basic compression) on its way to the screen, it's hitting the absolute limits of bandwidth from disc to CPU to screen though. So there's much less constraint on the size of those assets.

in reply to @Kayin's post:

I suspected it was the 4K textures and that sucks cuz I never play in 4K. I remember Borderlands 2 on ps4 gave you the option to download the 4K textures as DLC and I wish more games gave me that option to leave the big 4K stuff I'll never use out. Or at least let me delete it easily and save on disk space.

Just a note here, even though this IS still massively way too many pixels, 4K textures benefit even 1080p screens. How much... vastly depends on the game and how the textures are used.

;... But yes god it's so much fucking space like jesus christ why are these files so big please save me

i've been taking a ton of screenshots of HD anime over the past year and it's 50 fuckin gigs now of just. images. i feel like once we entered, idk, the 2010s, i stopped thinking of pictures as something that took up a significant amount of space, somehow, and it turns out they do in fact take up a lot of space. something about the rate at which storage evolved threw me off and i thought Pictures Didn't Count, which looking back was a bit like assuming a big box of printer paper probably isn't heavy because one sheet of paper is lightweight