Campster
@Campster

So this video feels pretty deeply naive. I like Adam Conover, but this kind of sucks.


The gist of it is that Elon Musk is ruining/has ruined Twitter as a platform, but we can't leave Twitter because that's where the audience is so there's nothing to do but nationalize it as a public good. Which, I mean...

First, I'm unconvinced given the trajectory of things that people will actually continue to stay on Twitter. Sure, it's where the party is now, but all parties end. History is littered with the graves of social media platforms and websites - even big ones! MySpace, Tumblr, Google Plus, Orkut, LiveJournal, Digg... remember that one weekend when Hive was real popular? They all died (or at least faded from relevance), and there's no reason to think people won't similarly abandon Twitter in time.

This is especially true if the platform continues to degrade the experience of using it. Whether it's removing the block feature, charging users to post, or the slow but inevitable move to an algorithmic feed, changes are going to keep coming that are going to push users out. It's clear that whatever Musk wants Twitter to be, it isn't what everyone else wanted out of it. So saying "Whelp, everyone's there and there's nothing to be done but stick around" feels ahistorical and even borderline defeatist. I mean, people have already started to leave.

Second, calls to turn Twitter into a public good have been going on since the early 2010's, but it's particularly laughable now. Not just because of the impossibility of getting anything passed in our current broken legislature, but because the site itself has fundamentally changed. Part of the reason that the "Twitter as a public good" idea got kicked around was because it did largely function like a town square or commons, for good and for ill. Everyone was on even footing in the discourse given the chronological feed and reply threading systems. Users prone to impersonation or whose use of the platform necessitated it were vetted and verified to be who they say, allowing for the site to be used by companies, governmental organizations, journalists, or celebrities. It provided news and discourse and avenues for commerce and more.

That platform is not X - a website that has tiered classes of users depending on whether and how much you pay and that has abandoned the verification system for everyone but government entities. You can't hand X over to a public trust as a more-or-less ready-made public good with the ads stripped out; you'd need to either revert to a 2021 version of the platform or start from scratch.

Speaking of which - the video also calls for public alternatives to Twitter. Which, okay, sure, cool! But this is in the same video where the argument is made that Twitter's whole power comes from its massive userbase. I'm not sure "Something a third the size of BlueSky, but run by a PBS funding model" is going to be an answer here. And besides, nationalizing stuff gets weird right away: Is the government doing a 1st amendment free speech violation if it removes Nazi posts on the government-run social media site? Also, should a global media platform be controlled by the American government (or even just an NPR-style government funded independent body)? The video sidesteps not just how we get to a public social media site, but also what it looks like or how it would be implemented. It just asks you to envision an idyllic social media platform (or really just Twitter circa 2017), call it a "public good," and think to yourself "Man, wouldn't that be nicer?" And yeah, sure, some hypothetical utopian version of Twitter would be nicer than the current hellsite. But it's not really an actionable concept.

Look, I'm not saying I don't believe in better worlds than this one - by all means, let's build something better. It's why I deleted my Twitter account and ended up here. But if you're going to stay on the Nazi transphobe's worse version of the hellsite because you don't want to abandon your access to that sweet sweet audience engagement and then argue that that's okay because maybe, somehow, some day it'll be transmogrified into a public good... I just think it's cowardly, is all. Conover isn't even one of the handful of people that legitimately rely on Twitter for work - I can at least entertain the idea that sex workers or artists will have a harder time migrating to other platforms either due to rules against their content/services or because mass numbers of people seeing your posts are necessary to make those endeavors viable (and even then, I still believe it's only a matter of time before they leave the site too). So it feels weird that he wants to hard for sites of hundreds of millions to billions of people to work - and indeed, presumes that they can work.

All of this is tiptoeing around a much bigger issue that I'm too lazy to write up as a footnote to my 'I didn't like this YouTube video' post, but: We're sort of at an inflection point in social media. The model of a handful of companies owning the six social media websites everyone in the world uses has failed. We either need to:

  • Acquiesce to being gruel fed into platforms not bent towards the needs of individuals or society but of a handful of capitalist ghouls
  • Invent ways to make websites with 300 million to two billion people functional without being owned by tech companies
  • Or get ready to return to a world of smaller, manageable communities and websites that aren't driven by engagement, ads, and the interests of capital.

Conover's video makes empty gestures about wishing for option number two while being more than happy to settle for option number one. But I know which way I'm leaning.


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in reply to @Campster's post:

Yeah, I originally referenced the stats in an earlier version of the post after looking it up - circa 2020 the monthly unique user count for Twitter was around 400 million users. The average unique monthly user count for Facebook? 2.91 billion.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a lot of Adam Conover arguments, where I'm with him a lot of the way, but come to completely different conclusions. Twitter was very good, for a long time! But it also always had problems that wouldn't be more tractable if it were a publicly owned service.

Also lmao yeah the whole idea of nationalizing it now, when it's in the private hands of a petty asshole who already ruined it and chased of a large portion of the userbase, is laughable, to put it mildly.

these definitely match up with all the critiques we've ever heard of conover. lots of good when it's not discussing like, big, structural things - his whole show "the g word" was completely wrapped up in that specific problem of being unable to parse a world "truly better" than one incrementally improved from the current state of things.

"Elon Musk is ruining/has ruined Twitter as a platform, but we can't leave Twitter because that's where the audience is so there's nothing to do but "
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"Elon Musk is ruining/has ruined Twitter as a platform, but we can't leave Twitter because that's where my audience is so there's nothing to do but"

at this point i can't take anyone's opinion on twitter seriously if they're still actively using twitter. i don't mean to be crass but it really does feel like the reasoning of an abused spouse or an addict. everyone has been immersed in this status quo for so long that they don't even see how deranged and toxic the idea of a single everything site for the entire world to use simultaneously is anymore

Not to mention, wouldn't a nationalized, US government-run Twitter or facebook be under a much stricter interpretation of first amendment rules than any private version? I mean, IIRC there was a case not too long ago that determined that government accounts and pages aren't even allowed to block or mute people because they're obligated to be accessible to their constituents.

Thing is most forms of online abuse and hate speech aren't strictly illegal, so i feel like the people calling for these platforms to become gov't entities are in for something much worse than anything they could've imagined, at least for pre-Elon twitter.

i find that this sort of discussion, framed in your final 3 choices, is extremely common in left-ish? progressive? media - podcasts, youtube videos, pop nonfic books, whatever. it drives me insane. the whole work is about the status quo and option 1, then a smile towards the bright future of the "have your cake and eat it too" option 2 in the closing lines/chapters (with no exploration of how that might be possible), and completely ignore option 3, the one that requires changes to how things are done.

I have thought a tooon about this stuff and yeah I think any form of nationalization is not a serious proposal, and 99.9% of the people offering it would back away from it at the trivial thought experiment of a Trump 2024 win - hmm, that guy, in charge of twitter's festering not-quite-dead-yet carcass? Yeah, no.

What I do think would work is a carefully set up internationally accountable nonprofit, in the mold of Wikipedia. Which is not to say that wikipedia doesn't have tons of cultural issues that most of its volunteer editors could tell you all about, but WP is at least as socially important (if not as powerful, in the various ways twitter was acknowledged to be powerful back in its heyday) as twitter and it has managed to keep its head above water in an incredibly turbulent sea of competing geopolitical-cultural forces.

The funny thing is that in a lot of respects (but "total expenses" probably not being one of them), a non-shit version of twitter should have lower overhead than wikipedia. You could basically roll back all the terrible bullshit Musk did to it and be within spitting distance of a feature complete version you could call "beta" and missing some moderation features. Twitter as a piece of software could basically be "finished" and do just about everything its users want it to do if it didn't have to turn a profit - all the "likes are now florps, timeline goes sideways" bullshit was the product of the Dorsey administration's rudderless R&D churn. The ongoing costs of content moderation and hosting would be the main thing a Twitter Foundation would need to put out the hat for during fundraising season. And I think it'd probably do fine for revenue if the entity asking for money was more like WP or NPR than Musk's incredibly inept grift.

Everything that would be fraught and politicized about a nonprofit (no really, actually nonprofit not all this neolib market-focused bullshit) Twitter is already fraught and politicized about Wikipedia (eg what's on Xi Jinping's page and who gets to write it). You would need to build the team very carefully and monitor its ideology, and it would be under constant attack from undemocratic forces of every stripe, but again this is true of multiple currently existing entities.

My best case scenario for twitter's epilogue after Musk finishes defiling it and sells off its corpse would be converting it into this sort of entity. I don't have much confidence that'll happen but it's what should happen, dammit.

The weird thing about this video is that he talks about the history of governmental intervention of the media...but the U.S. government really hasn't done anything analogous to his solution. They've broken up monopolies, nationalized the airwaves, and created public broadcasters, but there's not really a precedent for nationalizing an existing telecommunications or media company, as far as I know. I feel like breaking up Twitter and Facebook into multiple companies that compete and are required to interoperate would be the action that has the most historical parallels. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but it at least has more promise than nationalizing Twitter.

In fairness, I guess Conover hints at creating a new publicly funded social network, but he doesn't really elaborate on it, and it contradicts with his "Twitter is essential" argument.

I watched it when it was new and my overall feeling was that it had the aura of someone making excuses for something he wasn't going to stop doing. He needed to keep using twitter so he needed to make a case for why using twitter is the best way to fix twitter. Consider the dismissal of using Mastodon, as a 'thing for nerds,' which

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you're Adam Conover.