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I'm a Vietnamese cis woman born and currently living in the U.S. You may know me from Sandwich, from Twitter or Mastodon (same username), or on Twitch as Sharkaeopteryx. I do not have a Discord or Bluesky account.

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queerinmech
@queerinmech

i might have just discovered something?

superficial research is not showing me that anyone else has noticed this, so i just want to note this down

there are a whole bunch of indo-european languages which use 20 as a counting base for larger numbers, like quatre-vingts "four twenties" meaning 80 in French and trì fichead cat 's a seachd deug "three twenty and seventeen" meaning 77 in Scottish Gaelic

this phenomenon is simply not part of proto-indo-european and it does not appear in, for example, Hindi, which implies that it was a uniquely european-region innovation

check this out though, if you look at the extent of the Basque language (Euskara) in history, the only Paleo-European language group that still persists to this day, you will notice a pattern: all the IE languages which use 20 as a counting base all border Paleo-Basque territory

Extent of Basque Toponyms from Roman Sources

map description basically there's a halo that extends all the way from nearly Santander (Spain) on the west to beyond Andorra to the east, and from nearly Zaragoza (Spain) in the south all the way up to damn near Bordeaux (France) in the north, which means the Paleo-Basque ranged over that whole "elbow" area that pretty much which connects the Iberian peninsula to the rest of Europe - and probably beyond - this is a region around 400km by 600km

and as it turns out, the Basque (Euskaldunak) have had a vigesimal counting system all this time!

it seems reasonable to me that the paleo-Basque people - who long had their own well ingrained counting system and unique written numerals since antiquity - would be the ones that would impress upon the immigrants into Europe the use and practice of larger numbers and this filtered down into the subsequent languages until these other newly-minted European immigrants displaced the Paleo-Basque and other Paleo-European peoples


now you might be wondering about Danish, and we can see that no other Old Norse daughter tongues use this system - so it seems to me like they picked it up from their dealings with the Celtic people from the Gaelic to the Bretons, all of whom the Danes mixed with heavily while other Old Norse groups just did not - after all that is how we ended up with the Danelaw

if you are wondering why it affected French but not Spanish, it is almost certainly because French carries a strong substrate of Frankish - a language which existed in that region long before Latin did; while Spanish is mostly Latin and Arabic - both of which are newer to the area and thus did not pick it up those language features!

actually wait! i just found the tiniest mention of this theory on a Basque language learning site:

Basques have our own vigesimal numbering system. It is also used in other Celtic languages, perhaps as a remnant of a proto-Basque language that was widespread though large areas of Europe.

- Labayru

i bet the only research being done on this is by the Basques themselves, so, hopefully i will run across some Basque linguists who can fill me in on the details

related

this article is just shows that the Basque people of the BCE were literate and amazing artisans, and i found it while looking for evidence of the oldest attested example of the Basque miller numeral system, if you can find any info on its origins i would love to know!

and yes i am going to pretend that Resian does not exist because there just is not enough information available to me on it at this time to determine when or how it got there or if it is even from the same source


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in reply to @queerinmech's post:

Never thought of this, that's interesting. It's also the case that a bunch of East Caucasian languages do this as well, though I don't think it's clear how old a tendency it is, so it's hard to tell if this was an innovation and when it occurred, or if this was part of any kind of pattern, though it's possible that it was common across areas of paleo-Europe.

just to be clear i do not think that all vigesimal systems descend from Basque, only specifically the ones that popped up in IE languages in western europe between the Iberian and Jutland peninsulas

there are a lot of other vigesimal traditions all over the world with their own origins, like the 5/20 system widespread in Eskimo-Aluet languages which developed completely independently

as for the Caucasus, it would be funny if it were somehow related to Basque, like a pre-historic sprachbund where one picked it up from the other and then those populations eventually migrated to their current locations leaving hardly any other trace of their chance encounter

Dené-Caucasian lovers would go wild if it turned out there was some kind of provable link lol

Yeah I have huge beef with the Dené-Caucasian promoters, and also used to have this this ongoing rivalry with a Catalan computer scientist on the Zompist bulletin board who insisted he had evidence of Vasco-Caucasian being real, but none is it was systemic and he would never shut up about it.

I have a long standing grudge against Nikolayev and Starostin for their North Caucasian Etymological Dictionary, which isn't without merits but I find the whole thing a bit dubious.

I've also really tried giving the Nostraticists the benefit of the doubt, but I remain so unconvinced.

Nevertheless, I'm fascinated by how we can try to investigate the deep history of languages.

i feel like any macro family proposal has such an uphill battle ahead of them and i feel like historically they have rarely been done in good faith for good science

we have only begun to scratch the surface of the linguistic, cultural, genetic, archaeological, and historical migrations of ancient populations

hell we barely know anything about the pre-columbian americas because so much of it was intentionally destroyed by the invaders, so it is going to take at least an extra century to unpack it

add to that the destruction of evidence and willful ignorance of the peoples of africa and our shared history there and many other areas of the world and there simply is not enough data to go on

once we figure out a bunch more and have a better idea of how ancient populations moved and languages spread (not always with the same cultural or genetic group!) then maybe we can start making wild theories with red yarn on a pinboard lol

Yeah like this is a reality interesting topic to me and frankly it was kind of devastating to realize how sloppy a lot is the work was.

I used to be in a PhD program and wanted to use computational methods to estimate how well the comparative method could reconstruct an ancestor language in terms of information theory, and estimate what factors (time depth, vocabulary size, number of branches of available languages, depth of attested languages in the tree) would effect the amount of recoverable information, but sadly my department had no interest, and also it might have been too ambitious anyway.

I kinda of wanted to show the three Comparative Method, as used in the case of Indo-European was an anomaly, and can't be used the same way if we only have modern languages as evidence.

that sounds like a cool project, and i do not think it is too ambitious, but getting the corpus data could certain require a lot of effort

a lot of the ways that linguistics is talked about and analyzed is somehow both weirdly specific and frustratingly oblivious to both worldwide languages as well as IEL

I actually wanted to use computational phylogeny and sequence alignment to automatically reconstruct a proto-language, and also to generate a language and then generate a series of descendants, that way we could use a wide range of parameters. That might have pushed it over the edge of feasibility, but I also didn't feel that case studies would adequately answer the question

i mean i assumed that you would be reconstructing a possible proto-language, why else go through all the effort lol

you have seen all of the different tools for evolving languages for conlanging out there right? none of them are on the scale that you are talking about, but i fully believe it is feasible!

I still wonder if taking a case study approach would have been helpful to calibrate (I did try to use a lot of example problems from a historical linguistics book)

But yeah for sound change appliers, I wrote a pretty good one I think, I kind of had a whole set of libraries, but it turns out doing sequence alignment reliably enough to produce correspondences is pretty tough, and I had already been advised to leave the program by the time I got anywhere with it. Sometimes I wish I had more time to spend on it, but I've been focusing more on art and writing lately.

ohhh yeah i remember looking at that now

i had this idea a while back to build a library which contained a list of every known sound change demonstrated in a natural language, their frequency (or a list of languages it occurred in), their confidence level, and some kind of temporal component (like happened in the 3rd century BCE), and some other metadata about the characteristics of the language at this time

once the data is there, you can start doing things with it:

  • re-frame a glottal stop's movement to a velar stop as a general forward motion and compare
  • find the types of sound changes that are likely to occur for some given phonology and syllable structure and apply them
  • extract all palatalized sounds changes from ergative-absolutive languages

i am not really cut out for data entry though and most of this when you think about it is just putting stuff in a database and querying it

from a data model perspective all you need to do to start is define the attributes then write a program to ingest or do a lot of data entry

sure the format might be terrible and it might be inefficient but that does not matter, because once it is in the pool you can just build views or caches or whatever you need

then drawing additional correlations is just a matter of queries and lookups

but i just really want a portable db of all this info! not just some university paysite, but a multi-gig download i can run and query locally