sirocyl

noted computer gremlinizer

working on a @styx-os.

 

laptop.
                                                                                                     

"accidentally-vengeful telco nerd"
—Tom Scott

platform sec researcher, OS dev, systems architect, composer; Other (please specify). vintage computer/electronics nut.

I am open to tag suggestions - if there is something you want me to tag on my posts, leave a comment. <3


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RiteGud
@RiteGud

In the latest episode of Rite Gud, we talk to @ChrisBookishCauldron about how we read and why we read. What’s the point of reading when there are other ways of getting information? Does reading make you a better person? And why are so many Americans so bad at it?

Listen here. Read a slightly janky transcript here.


JhoiraArtificer
@JhoiraArtificer

y'all there is not a "what the fuck" big enough for what I read in this and am starting to hear in https://features.apmreports.org/sold-a-story/

I mean. This makes a lot of things I've seen around the internet make so much more sense, and also, how do we get out of this?


amydentata
@amydentata

oh, so people have been teaching illiteracy. that's nice


rotsharp
@rotsharp

just in case anyone thinks the immediately above characterization must be overblown: readers are encouraged to intuit meaning for passages based on guess work instead of reading words and interpreting them

i could feel the blood draining out of my body. many of the teachers quoted here are effusive about how the system "felt" to them. phonics were bad because it "felt old fashioned." they wanted to believe in what they were being sold because it "felt" empowering and comfortable

fucking up decades of lives based on vibes, for profit: the american way

education has never been accessible to me, but having been in compulsory schooling around these times makes it easy to imagine many of my worst teachers were just going "thank god! this one can read" before ignoring me (and my many and obvious non-academic problems)


ratherforky
@ratherforky

Having now listened to all of Sold a Story, I can confirm this is not an exaggeration and it's truly shocking (not least because Bush of all people was sort of on the right side of history on this one). I almost cried in public hearing one girl be so excited about being able to read after the school failed her and her dad had to teach her himself.

I don't teach children how to read, but I do teach uni students how to program, and this has got me thinking: should we be doing more to teach students how to read code?

The stakes are nowhere near as high1, but I'm starting to convince myself there are qualitative similarities here. In Sold a Story they use an example something like a kid reading "sleeping" instead of "napping". It kind of makes sense, but it's just not what's on the page and it's not the mistake you'd make if you were actually reading the word, they're just guessing from the surrounding context.

Thinking back, I've noticed similar mistakes from students when I ask them what a bit of code does and why. Most egregiously, one student got the 'what' right, but when pressed on the actual code reason 'why' they thought it was fundamentally because of the function's name. I originally attributed this sort of error to 'magical thinking', i.e. they read the code/parsed the syntax but attributed magical semantic meanings to variable names, but now I'm wondering if the more fundamental problem is they're not truly reading the code in the first place, or even more terrifying, they never learned how to read properly.

To be clear, that's a particularly extreme example and obviously you can't get into university without being literate, but if that literacy was acquired with these guessing/'three-cueing'/'whole-word' methods, then you'd probably use those same methods when learning to read a programming language and it's going to be 10x harder. I'm not sure how widespread this problem is among our UK2 or international students, but either way I'm gonna put a lot more thought into teaching students how to read code.


  1. See: Parenti on the joy literacy and the dejection of illiteracy

  2. Three-cueing seems to only have been officially discredited in 2006, and even then it still had/has some inertia: https://rrf.org.uk/2018/07/30/phonics-developments-in-england-from-1998-to-2018-by-jenny-chew/


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in reply to @RiteGud's post:

in reply to @JhoiraArtificer's post:

I haven't listened to the breakdown of the method yet, but I am just imagining the utter frustration of a child basically being told, "A horse is a horse, of course, of course" and that to grasp the most basic aspects of English, you have to be able to extrapolate from that when "horse" is the wrong answer.

This is WILD and it's very interesting that pretty much every non-English language I've tried to learn through self-guided online courses* has been taught kinda like this ("Here's a sentence, now guess the missing word that sounds/looks right. Having seen it in context, you know that it means ____. Now check to see if you remember how the word looks in context."). It mostly just led to me memorizing some vocabulary, but being awful at figuring out how to construct and read sentences. And I can recognize the description of how the adult reader tried to muddle through by identifying recognizable parts of words and then guessing, because that's how I end up trying to untangle sentences in languages I failed to fully study. o.O

(*Naturally, part of the problem is that this stuff is not really a good substitute for actual instruction, but it's kind of heartening to maybe get a sense of what to change about my approach.)

this is really striking to me because looking at words as whole units is how I read, but if I encounter a word I don't recognize (a rare thing indeed these days) I can fall back to phonics. It honestly feels like they took the shortcut that adults use to read and tried teaching it to children as the only way they can read, completely forgetting that it's a shortcut.

Oh gods, this is why people are always mixing up exacerbate and exasperate isn't it

Yeah, there's something interesting happening here around the value of context for understanding things, and as a kid I actually did learn a lot from techniques very like cueing. If I didn't know what a word meant, I could usually figure it out from the full meaning of the sentence; I remember learning that there was more than one meaning for the word "instruments" from a Bunnicula book because musical instruments didn't make sense. But the critical thing was that even if I had never encountered a particular word before, I could read it. I was trying to figure out the significance of the word from cues, not how the letters form a word and how the word fits in a sentence.

I did a bit more digging and see two concerns repeatedly coming up in the counterarguments against the phonics-based approach: 1) that exclusively teaching phonics will mean neglecting opportunities to teach kids critical thinking skills and explore the meaning of what they're reading, and 2) that phonics is so boring that it'll make kids hate the whole thing. In some ways I can see where the concern over the first one is coming from; it's not like there have been zero examples of an approach claiming to be based in Science demanding priority over anything grounded in compassion and emotion (along with treating those things as mutually incompatible with Science).

But also it seems like there's a disconnect over the meaning of "reading" here, where some people are taking it to mostly mean "comprehending the meaning of the text" and others are specifically talking about the thing your brain does where it looks at a string of letters and interprets it as a word you already know how to say. And seeing how dismissive one of the lead proponents of these methods is toward people being able to identify a writer's deliberate word choices...I don't think you actually can teach critical thinking skills through reading under those circumstances. At the very least, you have to be able to agree on which words are on the page before you can start to talk about what they mean in context.

While that story is indeed very interesting, it's worth taking with a grain of salt. Overall, the APM Reports story is part of a larger movement called "science of reading", which is pretty controversial in and of itself, not least because of proponents' inconsistent application of scientific standards. It's an incredibly complex topic that's been evolving over the course of the last half century or so and I would caution against the takeaway being "SoR good, Heinemann bad".

Totally, but the description of the pedagogy is what really threw the ??? for me. How can you say you're teaching kids to read when one of the lessons involves covering up the word you're supposed to be learning?

I'm definitely open to learning more about this, and I'm sure the perspective of the reporter influences how much information is presented, but I also don't understand how this strategy helps once, like, picture context clues aren't in the materials you're trying to read.

Yeah I mean there's definitely no place in the world for only teaching reading using Whole Language or other non-phonics techniques but there's also no place in the world for using only Structured Literacy techniques.

Okay yeah I think we're on the same page here—it seems like malpractice to use only these techniques but phonics-only also seems like a problem. After all, different people learn differently and I'm guessing having multiple strategies would help everyone take the useful bits from each of them (which may be different per kid).

in reply to @amydentata's post:

in reply to @rotsharp's post:

Ohhh my god I remember my aunt talking about how one of her ex husbands was taught to read like this and when she would go back and read something he had read out loud to her it would be completely different. I always thought she was exaggerating but this makes me so sad

Out of curiosity, did America ever have that weird period where kids were taught to read with an entirely different alphabet (with a more consistent phoneme -> grapheme relationship) which screwed a lot of kids over when suddenly they moved on in education and were expected to be reading stuff with an entirely different set of squiggles rather than the ones they were used to?

Both 'whole word' and... That... are awful, but at least the latter method is based on phonetics I guess?

I believe in some areas during the 60s or 70s the Unifon orthography was taught, though I know the army base grade school my Dad attended as an army brat only taught reform spellings with the standard alphabet, which still made life difficult for my father when my grandfather left the service and they returned to Connecticut. (The school my Dad attended there didn't adopt either. It also didn't help that he had undiagnosed dyslexia.)

The Catholic grade school I attended in the 90s took major pride in distinguishing itself from the local public school by shunning things like 'new new math' and 'whole-word reading', so I'm slightly chagrin to see that attitude being justified by this reporting.

in reply to @ratherforky's post:

Based on younger, fresher coworkers -- I think you're onto something. None of them can read code. I can walk them through it line by line and it's blank stares.

absofuckinglutely we should

one of the biggest key differences between a kid hot out of school and a competent and tempered senior engineer is that they actually think about what reading the code they're writing will be like. like not even in what you're describing with a "functional illiteracy" sense but even just a "wow this sucks to look at" sense

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