sizab

artist on hiatus

  • he/they/she

30+ / bi trans / ilu <3

i'm an artist making my way through life, this site seems neat.

Adult subjects and jokes may occur but no explicit porn. that's a DIFFERENT account.

Icon/PFP: gallusgalluss @ tumblr


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dante
@dante

i never considered the use of "un/necessary" in the "sex scene discourse" rhetoric as a way to elide saying that the art always by definition "needs" all of its constituent parts, but that's totally what it is -- a "defense of the unnecessary" is already ceding ground to the rhetorical framework of the coddled/fascist mindset by assuming that things can like, be unnecessary within an artistic work. I think Brandon Taylor's writing here absolutely nails that and more. here are two of my favorite paragraphs:

Another defense of the unnecessary that crops up in writing advice forums and in threads and tweets (now posts), is that “you need an unnecessary scene where the characters are just hanging out to give the story room to breathe.” And I would argue that that is…not an unnecessary scene? That is a very necessary scene? It literally has a function? How can it be unnecessary if it has a function? I mean, truly, use your human mind. Words mean things. And you might say, oh, these people who say that mean that the scene is not important for plot reasons, that’s what necessary/unnecessary is about. And I would argue that a scene where the characters are hanging out is in fact also still directly related to the plot. because in the scene where the characters are hanging out, they are also, hopefully, if it is well written, processing what they have experienced up to that point. It’s not just a breather for the audience. Hopefully, the characters are processing—dealing or not dealing with what they’ve done and said and heard and had done to them. Hopefully, in your “rest scenes” there is actually quite a lot of plot happening, and hopefully, in those scenes, something is happening to make the next thing happen.

In a story, all things are related. What a character feels about what is happening is as much a part of what they do next as anything else. We only believe character action when it seems to come out of real human response to situation and circumstance. That’s why some plots appear more plausible to us and some appear implausible. You can make a set of implausible events feel likely and believable to a reader if the characters respond and behave in ways we might imagine ourselves behaving or someone behaving. This is how the fantastical and speculative fiction work. This is how fairy tales and fables work. Bears don’t talk. But if they did talk, they might behave in certain ways that are familiar to us. Wolves don’t go around dressing as grandmothers, but we do know that wily people will do anything to get what they want, including dress as a grandmother to trick a little girl alone in the woods. Pigs don’t build houses, but if they did build houses, we might imagine that they’d pick an assortment of materials that made sense to them depending on their personalities and quirks. But that is about plausibility, not necessity.

emphasis mine


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in reply to @dante's post:

I really can't agree with this more. Who gets to define necessity in a creative work, if not the person who made it? You can have a discussion about whether or not something WORKS in its intended role, if it is doing its narrative purpose effectively, if that purpose itself is seeking things that represent socially-beneficial change... but that's a discussion about execution and not 'necessity.' Necessity-based arguments inherently favor a position wherein there is a final authority that can render judgement on the empirical value of content, and that's a very short ride to get to 'degenerate works' from.

I feel like there's a good addendum on this that attitudes like this have streamlined a lot of pieces of media past their point of plausibility -- "well, this show's all going to release in one chunk, we can't have any dead space episodes, but ah, we also need to fill an hour for every episode since this one ep needed it..." -- resulting in this damned from both sides mess where every scene "must" escalate the entire season's plot, again and again

In the words of Fat Amy, "nooot a good enough reason to use the word 'fascist.'" I think someone can rightfully criticize some of the more egregious "sexposition" from both GoT and Song of Ice and Fire without their thinking being traced back to Hitler and Mussolini. I don't even think that stuff is the same as what this guy is talking about. He's talking about world-building, not fanservice.

To clarify, I'm referencing GoT because of that subtitle under the photo. Not sure if that's what we're actually talking about or not. But still, I take serious exception to throwing around the word "fascist" when discussing art criticism. That word has a very specific meaning, and it's not one that should be repurposed or lightened. We're living in a world where fascism is very much alive and well, or at least there are significant groups trying to make it so.

I don't think the author is saying that. The author doesn't use the word fascist at all -- but I am, and I'm doing it on purpose.

I do believe fundamentally that "sex scenes are unnecessary" and similar statements are weak criticism (at best) that do not attempt to engage with a text beyond a surface read. Whether or not it's intended as such, it is in line with morally/sexually puritan beliefs about art, which I believe are linked inextricably to modern fascism.

You can use those phrases and claim to be using them in good faith, but I think it's unreasonable to deny that they are ideologically aligned with the same fascist moral panics currently ripping through the american zeitgeist.

I'm not saying that all criticism of work is bad. I'm saying that it's stupid, and perhaps dangerous, to leave your criticism at the point of "sex is scary/bad/unnecessary" without articulating the root of your actual criticism. Because if you don't do that, you sound like a fascist, because actual modern fascists commonly, and often, criticize works based entirely on the fact that they include sexual content.

I guess the main thing that's missing is the examples you're talking about of people saying "sex is scary/bad/unnecessary." If we're talking the TV adaptation of GoT, I can point toward a ton of examples where they go full Skinemax, especially in the first two seasons. For example, the scene in the premiere of the twins fucking? 100% in service of the story. Later on when Littlefinger is narrating the politics while two prostitutes go down on each other? I personally have no problem with it because it was fucking hot as hell, but I also see where some folks would have an issue.

I still take issue with you equating the criticism to fascists, though. My parents are Christian, Biden voters who avoid shows with a lot of nudity. By your definition, they're fascists. Which isn't the definition of fascists. They already have to deal with shit from the other older folks at their church who don't align politically, even though they're basically keeping it afloat single-handedly.

"Fascism" has a very specific definition. Don't try to pin that label on anyone who has a view that just so happens to overlap on something other than nationalism or race. You do that, you're falling into the trap where unless someone agrees with you on every individual issue, they're the enemy. That's simply not how the world works

i didn't say that any specific people are fascists. what i said is that certain lines of criticism (specifically those that denigrate works that include sex scenes) are aligned with a fascist ideology or mindset. We are swimming in a soup of american fascism every day, what i'm saying is to check yourself before you inadvertently align with the fascist status quo.

I am not calling your parents fascists or anyone else, necessarily. i am pointing out that actual avowed fascists also love to use the argument that all sexuality in art is bad, and thus that's perhaps not the best line of criticism.

for god's sake, i'm not just calling random people fascist. there is a difference between recognizing the downstream effects of fascism-as-ideology and just calling everyone i don't like a fascist.

I'm just saying that's a very dangerous line to ride on. I'd also argue that today's fascists, and let's just call a spade a spade, the Trumpers, aren't the ones complaining about the sex scenes. They're actually the ones arguing back against the more liberal, feminist side that's asking "is this really needed?"

I'd argue the real fascists are the ones who look at the Barbie movie and complain about her saying something other than "look how pretty I am."

The complaints about the sex in GoT or other high profile series aren't so much from the direction of being conservative. They're moreso from the perspective of women saying "wait a second, there's a seriously skewed power dynamic here." GoT in particular, there are a disturbing amount of sex scenes that border on or are straight up sexual assault, and I think it's a valid criticism to point that out along with the fact that it was written by a man who, let's be honest, probably isn't getting laid at this point in life enough to know how the real thing actually goes.

It's the presentation that matters. Look at Outlander. Outside of the one male-male rape scene (which I actually DO think was necessary to the story), no one complains about the sensual aspects. It clearly establishes consent. A lot of shows don't.

So I guess I'm saying that your argument means well, but you're arguing against points made 10 years ago, not today. Most of the arguments against the content we're talking about are from the perspective of women who are sick of being treated as eye candy to keep people interested. It feels like friendly fire to me

You should really read the article before you continue to make wildly off-base assumptions about what everyone is talking about here.

Also please know that there is a long history of fascists getting upset about the content of art —look up “degenerate art”.

it seems like a lot of times people are just maneuvering to avoid saying flat out what they really feel, ie "on a personal level i find this particular sex scene distasteful/uncomfortable", without gussying that up as a more formal critical argument, an argument about creative decisions, etc. because they feel weird and exposed saying that a particular sex thing makes them feel a certain way. and hey i get it, public vulnerability is hard, frequently reflexively punished on the internet. but the elephant in the room is, uh, the sexual politics of the last few centuries and how sex went from being literally unspeakable to being super out in the open, and wherever you fall on the spectra of comfort with the topic you gotta face that head on sooner or later.

Very likely true.

The argument in focus here feels itself uncomfortable. It also feels like people in these scenarios are trying to write by committee instead of with a plan in mind for what should happen.

mmh this is interesting and a lot of things come to mind related to this but now that i'm back on a keyboard i wanna talk about at least some of it. what i find really interesting here is that i think i want a lot of the same things (freedom of expression for artists, a broadened understanding of what art can be like) while arriving there by completely different means. my take on this is basically exactly the line of the defense of the unnecessary that's attacked in this piece - that art necessarily contains something unnecessary. that, in my view, is an integral part of its being art, its not being made for function. the author attacks this view by saying that the things called unnecessary actually serve a purpose (which, in most cases where this call is invoked, is certainly true). funny that he should here invoke examining the meaning of words, because having a purpose and being unnecessary are not mutually exclusive (i.e. the difference between must-haves and nice-to-haves).
as to your point of the fascistic drive underlying calls of unnecessity - i think you're almost on the money, but only insofar as that call also implies that the unnecessary aspects should be excised (which, again, i grant is often the case). my position then is that art contains unnecessary aspects always, but that they should be preserved. this extends to this somewhat paradoxical view of artistic expression: it is imperative that we are able to make things that are not necessary.
this might just look like (or be) petty squabble, but i feel like this is my take that is most pertinent to the points at hand. i probably should sit down and write down some ordered thoughts about the limited imaginary created through mass media or the moralistic attitude of many modern consumers (derogatory), though this has probably already been done better (liv agar has just done a great piece related to the latter)