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fighting game knowledge seeker

aka orin | salaryman gamer | fgc jack of all trades | mvc/ggxx/vf | marxist


blazehedgehog
@blazehedgehog

If you don't know what this is, here's an explanation: Both Fortnite and Call of Duty employ something called "Skill-Based Matchmaking" (SBMM for short), and it has become the bane of a certain subset of players who very vocally yell about how it is ruining multiplayer games.

In short, the game secretly and quietly keeps track of your "skill level." Even if a game has both ranked and unranked modes, it is always tracking this skill level stat that reports back how quickly and easily you're getting kills. When you connect to a new match, it tries to group you with players near your skill level.

The idea being you start with zero skill stat, and by playing the game well, your skill stat levels up until you eventually plateau and you are forever playing the game with people that are just as good (or bad) as you are, within some level of variance.

This means if you're one of these career streamer guys or a Youtube clip compilation sort of dude (or both), then you very quickly get put into high tier matchmaking pools with all the other career streamers and wannabe esports pros. Hence the very loud, very vocal complaints, because if you're one of those guys, the idea of having a "casual match" goes away. Everybody is always firing on all cylinders and you're expected to do the same in order to keep your rank and not look embarrassing to your captive audience.

So Activision apparently ran an experiment per Charlie Intel (article here) where they reduced SBMM's effectiveness, meaning the big fish pros and the little tadpole casual players were thrown into more games together.

The result was a sharp uptick in players rage quitting matches early, some even quitting the game entirely and never coming back. The report notes that while player retention for players with a high skill rank was improved, they make up such a small percentage of the player base (apparently less than 1%; the article has some grammar problems) that servicing them really doesn't make sense.

As it turns out, low level players don't want to get hopelessly destroyed by wannabe esports pros. And those pros make up such a small percentage of the player base it doesn't make sense to keep feeding them more low level chum, even though they are the hungriest for it. As more and more low level players permanently leave the game due to frustration, it turns into a wasteland where high level players are getting mad at each other until they also get frustrated and leave as well. SBMM ensures long term health for a game's multiplayer ecosystem.

And being a Fortnite player, it's so validating to hear this. "SBMM is ruining multiplayer" was always a narrative coming from streamers and youtubers who were frustrated by having to actually TRY instead of being able to score easy clip compilation fodder on clueless newbies.

Enjoy sticking to your smurf accounts now, I guess.


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in reply to @blazehedgehog's post:

This was weird being a fightimg game guy cuz we generally want to have folks play at a balanced skill level. And even clips guy in the FGC have a better chance of good clips if both players are really good.

I heard one guy that was (allegedly) not a streamer claiming SBMM meant they had to play with sweats, and couldnt have an easy game after a long day of work, but couldnt they just play with offline bots?

Yeah, fighting games are what I started thinking of immediately, because the experience described here happened to me with them! When I was younger, I was really excited to try MVC3 online but the ranked mode in that game was... not great. Getting immediately curbstomped by a single combo from a Hulk team felt so terrible and discouraging I didn't want to touch fighting games for another 14 years, and it's only now, with more accessible games and better online ranked modes, that they've become one of my primary hobbies.

It's interesting to think about if something like SF6 or even Strive had existed then, then would I have been encouraged to keep playing fighting games? And I think the post really points to that, yeah, probably.

It also makes me think of similar experiences I've had in other games that don't have these systems at all. For example, I remember the toxicity around "pubstomping" in TF2, and on private servers where I was playing with or against much more skilled players, it felt really intimidating and I didn't have fun! Even recently, I tried Star Wars Battlefront II, and the disparity between skilled players with everything unlocked and me with nothing unlocked made it so I didn't feel like I was even playing the game.

It's really really important for newer players to be able to feel like they're having fun and doing well, or yeah, people are going to quit. Why wouldn't they?

I think the "with your buds" that makes it different from anonymous online competition. Because playing with friends is different, right? If someone's way better they ease up and make sure their friends have fun too. If the game isn't particularly close at least you're chatting with friends about something before or after (or during). There's a whole social aspect there that doesn't seem to translate to online.

Which doesn't translate to online, right? Online anonymous competition strips out the social aspect and leaves only the competition.

Like, in principle, it seems like if you just play chill and don't feel too competitive, you'll just be worse and the matchmaking will adjust your skill level and match you to people you can have good games with. But it's not going to find a way to match you to people who are equally uncompetitive - it'll just match you to people who are worse, so you'll have people who are earnestly trying their best to win (which happens to put them at equal level to a better player playing relaxed/uncompetitive). So that's not really replicating the "just shoot some hoops with buds" feel either.

I think the approach to solving this has to be focusing on the social aspect, how do you make a game mode that encourages uncompetitive play and not worrying about wins/losses (but within that mode, they probably still have to use matchmaking to match up people who are even with each other, just both having fun and not taking it seriously). Not sure how to do that, but I don't think it's messing with the matchmaking, it's something else.

This is something I've only heard about from "afar", so it's cool to see behind the scenes.

It seems so difficult!

Comparing to my experience with fighters (which has their own issues with Ranked/Unranked MM), they only have to worry about one person at a time. Trying to create an entire ## human lobby that ends up catering to one person's expected experience is generally impossible....hm!

very Alucard Symphony of the Night voice I'm interested in this.

Oh, this is actually an interesting thing to learn about for me because like... I sort of get both sides here. Obviously its good that people learning don't have to worry about being matched up against good players all the time but, from my experience (I'm thinking about Splatoon and Smash Bros, but I don't actually know if Splatoon really has it...), I don't think that its well implemented usually, or can't be improved to remove problem points. It makes me hyper aware that improving at the game doesn't actually reward me with anything at all, the game's dead set that you will win 50% of the time, which makes it sort of stop feeling like a game of skill in a sense. You don't win more if you get better, in the long term. And losing against people better than you means the game will lower my skill level and take away my chances to learn from others and improve, because I lost and have to fight people who are less good now. At least with ranked modes its transparent about how it works and more about that. I get this is a personal mindset failing probably, like you said skill based match making is overwhelmingly good for most people, but I do think its why I've mostly stopped playing competitive games online with random people. Edit: Also aware that small team/1v1 competitive games are different than like, free-for-all shooter balancing, but it felt relevant.

I spent a while thinking about this comment because ranking systems and things like that fascinate me, and I think this is due to the effect of having a huge pool of players, especially ones that are brought together only by that game.

Like, online you might have matchmaking against a pool of thousands of people easily. And so if you don't have skill-based matchmaking, new players just get crushed, zero percent win rate and no chance of improvement because they'll get matched against experienced players, so they drop out and the next batch of newbies also have nobody to play. And so with SBMM everyone gets ~50% winrate, including as they get better.

But that's not limited to online! I play offline sports (tennis) and it's the same. In pro tennis, everyone up to about the top 30 players in the world has a winrate of around 50%, because if someone is winning more they move up to the next level, and otherwise move down if they lose too much more than half. But it's not just pro! USTA rec tennis is the same, there's skill bands so if someone gets better they move up. (The skill bands aren't perfect so there are players who consistently have high win rates or low win rates, because they're near the top or bottom of a rating band... but being near the top of one band will get you a better win rate than the bottom of the next one.) And local ladders also have the same effect, you move up as you win and move down when you lose so everyone mostly has a 50-50 record unless they're really at the top.

...but I've also had cases where this DIDN'T happen, and it was when there's a small group. In college, lots of people in my dorm played Super Smash Brothers. You mostly played with whoever was around at the time hanging out in the common areas. But it's a small group - probably about a dozen kids or so regular players. Almost nobody was really interested in "advancing", the top kids in the group didn't graduate to tournament play or anything, or vice versa the kids at the bottom didn't have a "minor leagues of smash" to play in. So everyone was mixed together, and as someone joined and improved they really could move from "mostly losing, except when people go easy on them" to being middle of the pack.

And I think that the key is that the group was relatively small, and was brought together by something other than just that game. You naturally get this with neighborhood anything - if you're playing any sort of game with people who physically live close, then you get a small group that people don't leave as they get better or worse, thus achieving a spread of skills with a chance to move up WHILE ALSO not crushing new players with endless matchups against people who beat them effortlessly. (Especially since the in-person social aspect makes the better players "go easy" on newbies when they're literally next to each other.)

I don't think I've ever seen an online matchmaking service replicate that "neighborhood feel". It's not like I've done a comprehensive survey or anything, but I also don't know how that would even work.

It's so weird to me that this was ever an argument.
Like yeah of course noobs don't wanna be matched with people thatre better than them. I used to play Phantom Forces on Roblox around 5 or so years ago and it quickly got boring because it was really hard to get good, and it DID NOT have any skill-based matching since it was Roblox so it'd just put you in a random lobby.
Anyway, I stopped playing for awhile and then decided to come back just for funsies, and it's literally impossible to play anymore if you're not already a pro-level FPS player. It's just not fucking possible. I didn't get good when it was new, so I'm never going to match these people's skill level.

If the pro level players don't like playing at a pro level, then maybe they should go find something else to play...
Then again. It's not about being good it's about being better than everyone around you. So no matter what they'll find reason to complain.

I have an experience with a real person in the same room as me playing local-multiplayer and being way higher than my skill level. And the result was exactly the same, I don't want to play with them anymore and haven't touched a fighting game in a long time.