smallcreature

slowly recovering from birdsite

autistic queerthing from france. kitty fighting the puppy allegations. Asks welcome!

Icon: Komugi from Wonderful Precure
Header: Whisper of the Heart



shel
@shel

I have a friend who... I often think is not neurotypical but he calls himself "autistic-socialized" and insists that he is neurotypical and has no trouble at all with understanding NTs and their complex games of the noble court that they all begin playing from a young age as though the old gods of chaos are urging them on towards making everything more confusing than it needs to be. Let's call him sub-clinical, or "of only the phenotype."

Last night he told me that NTs often will not ask questions because they are concerned that asking a question will make them "look stupid."

This is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever heard. You know what's worse than looking stupid by asking a question? Choosing to remain ignorant of necessary information for the sake of concealing your need for an answer. How is one to learn without asking a question and revealing that you, G-d Forbid, want to fill a gap in your knowledge. If you appeared ignorant upon asking the question, we all now know that you are no longer ignorant now that your question has been answered.

To ask a question is to be appear engaged and interested in learning, which is one of the best things any individual can ever be. Some questions may be socially inappropriate if they are overly personal or prying, but most questions are not of such a nature.


shel
@shel

I always tell my library assistants "I would rather you ask every time how to do it than to get it wrong even once."

It is better to ask now and do the right thing later than to save face now and make an embarrassing mistake later due to your ignorance.

I am going to rewrite social norms with NT-driven values. The stupid-looking thing is sitting there quietly with a blank stare when you're asked "any questions." The response should be a question, any question, and if you can't think of a question, you can say "I think I understand it, but if I think of a question later, can I come ask you?" We can make it one of those customary meaningless questions like "how are you" where the NTs don't really want a real response, or the response is predetermined. If you don't have any questions, you ask if you can ask questions later, and the prescribed response is to say yes, and that's how you know someone didn't have any questions.


smallcreature
@smallcreature

I'm someone who has trouble coming up with questions on the spot, but I often have questions later down the line and I'm too afraid to ask them because this isn't the alloted time slot for questions anymore.
So I'm absolutely going to steal the question about questions, thank you


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in reply to @shel's post:

even if its not generational/traumatically informed, it's probably either someone very insecure; or the belittler was attempting to hold court with a knowledgable in-group that the asker wasn't part of; or just kind of a jerk in general - sometimes you just catch someone in a mood

my theory is in the US especially it's also that so much of business started as ex-military GI bill university grads, so they cargo culted officer leadership and their takeaway was that leaders are people who give orders and make other people follow them, and none of the "people stuff" that leadership actually entails, and then that made it into Business Books and Personal Tips and Business Curriculums

so it's about establishing dominance as a "leader", especially through the illusion of greater experience

Possibly, but:

At least in the modern US military, there is an expectation to "read back" a complicated order before executing it to ensure clear communication. In many workplaces, doing this will make some supervisors think you are an idiot.

I mean, speaking from personal experience a lot of it was tied to an evangelical hegemony trying to whack-a-mole down anyone who rocked the boat. I agree with you that the thirst for knowledge is super important; it was not to the culture I grew up in.

As a kid, asking questions put a target on my back. It took years to unlearn that.

It's not just children, people learn to avoid things that they think got them fired in the past. Going forward, I know I'm going to be a lot closer to the "trying not to look stupid" end of the spectrum than the "trying to learn" end

unfortunately, at least in my experience of schooling, the societal expectation from the professors and the other students is that the student is expected to passively listen and consume knowledge, and therefore asking a question is not only a disruption but an admission that the person asking has failed in their role to passively consume

It can be frustrating when someone asks questions about something that was just explained to them, or something that can be very easily inferred from what was explained - i.e., teacher tells the class "butterflies are insects" and someone wants to ask okay but are blue butterflies insects? how about yellow butterflies? how about...

and when it's a class of 50 people who only get 50 minutes a week to learn the material and they're paying tuition to hear the instructor say yes, green butterflies are also insects, I think that can be a case of asking too many questions (or at least asking them in an inappropriate time/setting) without the questions themselves being offensive.

I feel like the way I'd handle this is to say "All butterflies, regardless of color, are insects. If you need further clarity on this, I am happy to continue this discussion after class with you. For the sake of time, we need to move on."

His job is to evaluate youth for learning disabilities and as a result it's impossible for him to get tested himself since he knows how all the tests work and couldn't give genuine responses. He'd always know "if I do this, it indicates autism, if I do that, it indicates allism." The joke is therefore he can't be diagnosed with autism and therefore cannot be autistic.

That said, he does often offer insights into the allistic condition that I don't think most people I know would be able to give. If he isn't allistic, he seems to understand them better than I do, and when he understands autistic stuff, he doesn't usually seem to be doing so from a place of "I understand because I share your experience" but rather from a place of "I understand because I have a lot of autistic friends and clients" it sounds more intellectual. It's not "yeah I hate that texture/noise too" it's always "yes it makes sense you would have trouble with that texture/noise given your autism. It doesn't bother me at all though."

I don't really think it's just neurotypicals who do this, I think it's really anyone who's been made fun of or demeaned for asking a "stupid question" that, in the other person's eyes, they should know the answer to. So it becomes a learned response that in order to avoid being yelled at for not knowing something, you avoid asking "stupid" questions. This is one of the reasons why when I worked in retail I would often reassure new hires that it's fine to ask me questions no matter how silly it felt to ask them, even if they were things they ought to know by now, because I knew how awkward it felt to do so when I was new, and sometimes people just assume you know or ought to know how to do something without actually checking whether or not that's the case

increasingly convinced one of the core parts of autism is just that you're coated in socialization teflon. sure, some things stick if you're motivated enough to study them, but so many of the social pressures don't unless significant amounts of hostile force are applied

my take as a self-considered neurotypical person is that the thought pattern is "I don't want to ask a question because that will lead to me being considered less able than somebody who instantly understands the subject without needing to ask questions."

this is compounded in social settings (e.g. classrooms) where the number of people observing you is much higher, and further compounded if you're already likely to be considered less able at the subject (for discriminatory reasons of race, gender, class, educational attainment, etc.)

this argument breaks down at several points, but it's such a classic example of social anxiety that I have a lot of sympathy for it haha

there's also a factor of "asking dumb questions in a social setting will be seen as annoying by other students" that contributes to less classroom-based questions, though that's not as applicable to individual learning

in reply to @shel's post:

The other comments about avoiding ridicule match my experiences, but to add to that: The reason why someone might ridicule you for not knowing something is because "society" expects everyone to put in some baseline level of work learning things on their own so as not to "waste time" by having someone else have to explain it to you. Meeting this obligation and knowing things already is a virtue and shows that you are conscientious of other people's time and are committed to the group.

This is, of course, bullshit, for lots of reasons. But it benefits the people who don't get mocked because they can demonstrate their superiority over others, and it provides cover for someone who doesn't care about the health of the group to pretend that they do. This benefit is why individuals perpetuate the practice and it sticks around even though it pretty clearly is detrimental to the health of a group.