smallcreature

slowly recovering from birdsite

autistic queerthing from france. kitty fighting the puppy allegations. Asks welcome!

Icon: Komugi from Wonderful Precure
Header: Whisper of the Heart



Turfster
@Turfster
  • Apple removed disc drives from their machines at a critical junction in time in their fucked up race to be E V E R T H I N N E R

  • this made Microsoft go "hey, if the overpriced hipster bullshit brand isn't doing drives any longer, we don't need to go to any efforts either, so let's not pay for that bluray license"

  • which means there's no easy way to play bluray media on a computer without installing garbage bloatware rootkit third party software, so most people don't bother

  • streaming ghouls swoop in backed by vulture capital

  • everyone pats themselves on the back that "nobody's buying physical media any longer, but it's fine, streaming will solve the problem forever"

  • having gotten a big enough foothold, streaming ghouls stop offering actually interesting stuff

  • you can't actually watch a large swathe of movies and TV series any longer, because where are you going to find the physical media?

Q E fucking D


hkr
@hkr

Apple, who's computer market share has never really capped 10%, is not solely responsible for "killing" physical media (This is where you could make arguments that physical media isn't dead; and it's not). There are a number of competing factors that have reduced physical media's market share:

  • The bluray vs HDDVD war causing confusion among the consumer base during the key early years of HD media.

  • The console war not going to Sony in the US during the PS3/Xbox 360 era, slowing adoption of bluray as a media format.

  • The spread of high speed internet across america, allowing HD video quality to more easily be streamed

  • The rise of high speed mobile internet for high speed portable devices, and a culture of people who want to access their media wherever they are on whatever device they have.

  • The rising popularity of digital media in general fueled by piracy (Nerds setting up an all digital home media servers and excitedly telling anyone who'd listen how'd they'd gone all digital)

  • The rising renters market, reducing physical space available to store physical media, as well as causing scenarios where people constantly have to move and needing to carry as little as possible with them place to place.

  • Netflix producing some really good TV in their early years, driving adoption so people could talk with their friends about the new season of Orange Is the New Black.

I could spend hours and days talking about why the "end" of physical media is not some vast conspiracy, but a logical chain of events over the course of a major cultural shift in the US. I could also debate whether physical media is "dead" (it's very not, it's just now a more niche market because there are better options for normal consumers who never watched anything beyond what was the most popular thing at any given time). Apple certainly isn't responsible, nor Microsoft or Sony.


jkap
@jkap

strongly agree with @hkr on the point that physical media isn't dead.

many people know that i am as big on the "self-hosted media server" as any1. unlike many people, the lie of "ah but most of it is blu-ray backups of legally owned media" is not actually a lie; i actually buy physical copies of everything i like and then rip them2 to store on my server. i have two main reasons for this:

  • while it is obviously very easy to pirate movies, even at full quality, they very rarely contain any Special Features, commentary chief among them. a physical or digital release is often the only way to get these and, if i've got a choice, i'm going physical 100% of the time3.
  • pirating UHD films is a fucking nightmare. the only device i'm aware of that can actually play profile 7 dolby vision is an nvidia shield pro. i have one. it's broken more than half the time because android tv is a disaster that's still missing features apple tv had day 1. the newer apple tv still only supports profile 8 dolby vision, which is what streaming services use4. meanwhile, i have a great UHD blu-ray player that i use constantly5. as you'd expect, it's also a great standard blu-ray and DVD player6.

i sort of lost the plot here. whatever. the point is physical media is very much not dead, it's just more niche. buy a nice blu-ray player and watch some fuckin moveys. check out your local video rental store, you almost guaranteed have one7.


  1. i have a decommissioned backblaze pod 3.0 (with a swapped motherboard since the original hardware was Weak even by contemporary standards) in my closest. i'm only using about half the drive bays right now but it's still better than anything else i've used, also it was free.

  2. ripping blu-ray discs is so fucking easy and external blu-ray drives are shockingly cheap. check out makemkv to learn more.

  3. also pretty much every physical blu-ray comes with a MoviesAnywhere redemption code. there is literally no reason to buy digital movies.

  4. i could go on for a Long Fucking Time about how streaming services (disney+ chief among them) are obsessed with including fake dolby vision masters (HDR10 with what appears to be per-frame peak brightness, which is worse than HDR10 in every single way) that disincentivize me personally from using them. i wish i could force turn off dolby vision on my setup in certain circumstances. this is one of those instances where i will pirate any day of the week b/c i can make sure i'm only getting an HDR10 version.

  5. it's a standalone player. the PS5 and Xbox Series S/X don't support dolby vision on UHD blu-ray for reasons i do not understand, especially since the Xbox supports dolby vision for games (??????) and streaming services. i'm assuming it's another profile 7 support issue. who knows.

  6. FUN BONUS: it also plays SACDs! shout out sony for continuing to support this format in at least Some of their hardware. i only own three SACD discs but hey at least i can play them without dragging out the ps3 now.

  7. TALLAHASSEE RESIDENTS: check out Cap City Video Lounge if you haven't yet. it's in railroad square. they've got a great selection and also do screenings sometimes. i saw popeye (1980) there one time.


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in reply to @Turfster's post:

genuinely: the only option is piracy. even if you have moral qualms. you know how it's impossible to get attention of corporations these days unless you've already demonstrated the ability to assemble your own audience? That's straight up what piracy is at this point. You know there's people at all these corps paying attention to what's getting pirated for moral outrage/hoping to get a payout reasons, but those people are also those most in tune with what demands the market isn't currently serving. If you want something to succeed that isn't addressed in the current market, piracy is the only option. Ideally then also pay for it when they make it available, but even if you don't, others will. So: Pirate stuff to save the art you most care about. Thank you.

I'm gonna promote this to a share actually lol

our current fractured streaming hell is what prompted me to get super into piracy. between HBO and Netflix and Hulu and Prime and Paramount and Disney i'm just done, i'm over it, these companies deserve to fail

my buddy has been on the "just download TV/movies from usenet" bandwagon for a long time and I finally asked him how the hell all that works, and once you get your automations setup it's so much easier than trying to find a movie/show on any of the 3,000 streaming services. I just search with Radarr or Sonarr (respectively) and it grabs the media I want and dumps it into my Plex.

unfortunately it's not that accessible for non-tech folks, which is a big bummer

I mean also, disc based media isn’t like, dead, not all stuff on Netflix “originals” gets pushed to dvd but a good amount of it does eventually, and there’s still plenty of stuff not on streaming, and also most blu-ray releases are also dvd releases (if not all, I’ve personally never come across a blu-ray release that isn’t also on dvd), streaming foothold still sucks and I agree that the state of media is in a dire situation but it’s like, discs are still obtainable and being made every day, I have many many movies of recent years on dvd here at home

Sure, most of the latest non-streaming platform exclusive movies still get some kind of disc release on DVD and sometimes Bluray, but the buying windows can get quite tight for things that aren't like Pixar's Latest Whatever.
I've seen a ton of more "indie" things disappear from the market completely within half a year or less, if they even got a release.
And good luck trying to find a 30 or even 10 year old TV series for sale that isn't secondhand, or scratches/bitrot in case of secondhand DVDs.
Stores that used to have walls upon walls of media now have like, maybe 3 measly little racks, with the same megablockbusters everywhere.
I guess it all depends on where exactly you live as well.

I pretty much only buy secondhand and have had 0 issues tbh and have mostly been buying movies from the 80s lately! Releases and availability also haven’t been guaranteed for any given media throughout history, it’s worse for some things nowadays of course due to streaming, I use sites like eBay mostly but also have a local used goods store I go to that has an extremely large disc and tape selection so I guess I have better luck in that regard, secondhand is always the best way to get media though imo, when it comes to movies and TV series, it’s almost always cheaper and again haven’t had any issues myself! Well, one time a case was a little beat up but the dvd was in perfect condition

[quietly jealous]
The secondhand market here is... quite bad, and the local used goods stores don't even do movies, all they have is CDs and LPs.
(no, I do not live in the early 90s)
I've also gotten so many quite expensive secondhand sets that had scratched/dying discs that I've gotten quite leery of buying secondhand at all, unfortunately... which leaves me well up a creek.

yeah, I was kinda hinting at that with my "the current market" stuff, sometimes you really can find stuff on disc and it's fine. I watch blurays of my favorite stuff, for sure, I bought Everything Everywhere All At Once almost immediately once it came to disc. Of course, production runs are short, they don't keep much in the channel beyond current demand, etc etc etc.

The part that gets me is that Apple had some of the best physical media support prior to this. I buy an Audio CD, I put it in my mid-2007 PlasticBook running OS X Lion, iTunes rips it in ALAC. I plug in my iPod Mini, iTunes converts to AAC and syncs it. I now have a digital copy of the album on my iPod in two end-user actions (after some initial setup). It could not get any easier. It was great.

Unfortunately even at this point in time Apple was on their way to obsoleting physical media. If I downgrade to Snow Leopard I can plug in TWO CD-ROM drives and rip them at the same time. Newer versions of iTunes will refuse to do this, it will rip one at a time in series no matter how many drives you have and how much you mash the button.

So honestly I'm really happy that most laptops come without disc drives now. It used to be pretty hard to find one. And like, physical media isn't forever, CDs and other disc types degrade, even if they avoid damage.
If there's something you can't find or really want to own, download it and save it to cloud backup. Yarrr, matey!

I wouldn't consider cloud backup to be forever either. Maybe if you're with one of the big players you can count on not losing your files without warning at least, but there are too many times conditions of service have changed in the past to make a good option unaffordable or otherwise less appealing. I think it's also entirely possible it will become harder to obtain encryption-friendly large tracts of file storage in the future and that digital fingerprinting of files to identify illicit booty will make it a challenge to store certain things. Could be paranoia but I hear Apple is already prowling through customers' personal files to flag potential child exploitation materials, I wouldn't be shocked by that surveillance expanding its focus.

Ideally for me the best solution is a good cloud service but also maintaining a more private home physical backup option. In my household we have a shared RAID-based fileserver (so we have redundant data spread across multiple hard disks) and certain directories from my space on there are backed up to a cloud service. It's not cheap and when the hard disks in the fileserver start to fail (which I seem to remember all of the original four disks did years ago in the space of several months) you have to get onto that quickly, but we have had issues with our cloud provider and been very happy to have a solid offline setup.

Having said all of this, I wouldn't rely on them for a second but I do still have a bunch of burned DVDs, mostly TV recordings I'm not interested enough in to save elsewhere, and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of those end up perversely outliving me. 🙃

Yeah I've got cloud backup with Google and Backblaze... Google is evil in a lot of ways, but at least if they suffer multiple catastrophic data center loses, it's probably the apocalypse and my bootlegs won't really matter.
Besides, my laserdisc edition rips of the original trilogy theatrical releases are also backed up on numerous other locations, including my phone's SD card, because I am NOT losing those!
Cloud providers deciding/ being forced to patrol for infringing material would be a big problem, for sure. At that point you'd be reliant on your personal storage being disaster-proof, which I think is beyond any reasonable expectation for anyone but really rich nerds.

Yeah, that's the unfortunate problem.
You don't want to rely on nebulous systems in someone else's control that could be forced to do something about your stuff, but you also can't just keep it in your own home, because if something happens... then what?

(Also I really need to hook up a setup so I can rip my laserdiscs before it's too late, but my player is uh... old and cranky)

I think being aware of what you absolutely couldn't stand to lose is the right way to frame your decisions with file backups. I too have my set of things that must survive (my writing/other creative work, some photos, music/ebooks I wouldn't want to be on the planet without) and for everything else... it's just hoping the existing systems continue to work.

The home fileserver isn't a perfect solution, especially since we haven't been able to afford to upgrade anything for years and have been lucky nothing failed in that time, but I admit it does make me sleep a bit better knowing it's there. 🤭 And yeah as much as I hate having anything to do with the likes of Google, services 'too big to fail' certainly have their benefits.

Apple is always at the scene of the crime when it comes to technology disempowering people. Their anti-repair antics are really shocking. Unfortunately they're much better than Microsoft at convincing their customer base that everything they do is actually good and necessary and they end up enabling all the other players to make this stuff normal.

The last TV content I pirated was actually an anime I already bought probably a decade ago and still have the DVDs of. Easier to watch as a digital copy on the laptop, much easier to download a copy someone who does this all the time has ripped properly rather than scrambling around to find the USB Blu-Ray drive and then figuring out what I can install on my current machine to do what I want and then forgetting how to do any of it by the next time I want to rip something in two years' time...

in reply to @hkr's post:

One thing missed is that, in Steve Job’s own words, bluray was “a bag of hurt”. The engineering side was fine, but rightsholders, probably paranoid about piracy, made licensing a bigger pain than it ought to have been, slowing hardware adoption on computers.

I'm definitely in the band of "I do not want to own all of these objects because I'm going to have to move them". Things have to be pretty special or useful to be worth taking up space to me, and media that I can trivially access digitally will basically never hit that bar.

I would be fully down to buy stuff and rip it but then what do with disks afterwards? and also I don't have the storage setup yet.

yeah i think the distinction isn't between "streaming" vs "physical", it's "streaming/renting" vs. "downloading/buying". i have all my music stored as mp3s and that's infinitely easier to deal with than messing with physical objects.

plus like @hawkowl brought up in another post, a laptop cd drive is a big thing. i'd much rather use that space for battery life, or fans, or better speakers, or something.

in reply to @jkap's post:

People underrate the factor that nobody can afford to own housing any more. Having a big collection of physical media becomes drastically less attractive when it's just another thing you're going to have to lug from landlord shitbox to landlord shitbox for the rest of your life.

this is absolutely me. i love the concept of being someone with a uhd blu-ray player and a collection of high quality releases but every time i have contemplated buying a physical release of a movie i enjoyed i instantly think of my upcoming move (because there is always an upcoming move) and back away.

re: 4, it's one of the reasons the apple TV is actually quite nice. it is very easy to force the format the Apple TV will support so removing shite HDR is surprisingly easy.

also VRROOM is a nice, pricey, device for fixing HDR mappings if you have the time

i haven't been able to get it to Actually stay on HDR10 when i set the output to that and disable matching dynamic range. unsure why since i feel like it should work, but disney+ goes into dolby vision anyway. it's annoying!

interesting, it seems to work for me but i haven’t setup the debug hud since last update so i’m not sure what it’s actually doing on box, tv says it’s HDR.

but for a while last year amazon prime was sending SDR as HDR (or maybe the other way round?) and it looked atrocious. maybe there's a bit of wonkiness with how it’s handled in general.

i guess the last ditch effort would be an EDID editor like what HD Fury makes and just claim your TV doesn’t do dolby vision 😅

adding to this: streaming doesn't have the dvd extras so if i like something, i always try to find a disc of it. I might just have to get an HDMI switcher at this point and work a blu-ray player into my desk setup, because i have a blu-ray drive in my PC but the software is awful as mentioned in prior posts

i will look for old DVDs just to enjoy the extras even if i can find something on streaming

this is part of why i love video rental stores. you get the instant gratification of watching something while also getting much better quality than you’d get streaming. also you get to support a local business!