smallcreature

slowly recovering from birdsite

autistic queerthing from france. kitty fighting the puppy allegations. Asks welcome!

Icon: Komugi from Wonderful Precure
Header: Whisper of the Heart



shel
@shel

I think something that's not talked about enough probably because it's very obvious and yet maybe we all forget this is that it feels really bad when someone is rude to you—even when you know that person is wrong or overreacting. We talk a lot these days about the value of the honest real kind versus the fake shallow nice but I think there is a value to nice.

There is a value in pausing and thinking about what you're about to say and if the way you're saying it is unnecessarily hostile or aggressive. Not because you're a bad person for feeling that way or being transparent about how you feel. But because it's nice when people make that slight effort to be nice to each other. It feels bad when someone is unnecessarily rude or mean to you, and it's nice when people choose to keep some of that to themselves and instead phrase things a little more diplomatically or neutrally.

Obviously, as an Autistic person, I am not setting a high bar here for people to do lots of dancing around things and indirectness and mind-reading nonsense. But there's just such a big difference between the neutral-nice "Man, I'm disappointed that this library doesn't have Goncharov on Blu-Ray. Can you order that for me?" versus the rude "this piece of shit library doesn't even have Goncharov on Blu-Ray. Order it." It's communicating the same thing but honestly the tone is just such a big difference! Neither of these is "kind" they're both complaints followed by directives, but one of them just feels a lot better to be on the receiving end of!

A nice thing about being a librarian whose supervisor is a former bartender is we just treat the library like a bar. If someone is being hostile or rude to us, we just kick them out. We talk back and tell them "don't talk to me like that or I'm not ordering Goncharov on Blu-Ray." It's a free service, we don't need any individual person to borrow any individual item. But like, most other people don't have that option. Most workers don't get to talk back to customers or bosses or clients. Also, even outside of a work situation, it just sucks when someone in public is rude to you in an unnecessary way. Like, I had someone sarcastically call me "little miss sunshine" for having a flat affect and neutral face. It's just rude and mean. Leave me alone. What's your problem. Sheesh, y'know?

Anyway, not expecting everyone to have the best social skills or anything, and I really do value candor and honesty and such. I just think sometimes it's worth it to avoid cuss words in some contexts.


nex3
@nex3

as someone who has spent a bunch of time explicitly teaching myself how to frame the stuff I say in a nice way in the way that Shel is talking about and: it gets results. Not necessarily in terms of "people doing what you want" (although sometimes that too), but mostly just in terms of people being happier when they interact with you and being nice back to you. It feels good!


shel
@shel

Marsha Linehan has this story she tells about the girl who grows up in a burning building. She notices smoke and when she tells an adult everyone tells her it's nothing and ignore her. Then she sees the grease fire and she tells and adult and they tell her there's no fire. Then the fire spreads to the counters and she tells and adult and they ignore her. Then the fire spreads to the entire kitchen and she tells an adult and they tell her to shut up. Then the fire spreads to the entire house and she tells an adult "Now the whole house is on fire!!!" And the adult says "HOLY CRAP!!! What didn't you say anything sooner?!" and they call the fire department and the fire gets put out.

Well the girl grows up and she unconsciously learns that if she needs something the only way to get it is to escalate it to the level of a house fire right away. If needs to be as big and loud as possible or she'll be ignored. So from then on no matter how small the need she treats it like a house fire, emotionally experiences it as a house fire, and learns to default to expressing everything with the severity of a house fire. She doesn't even realize she's doing it.

Of course this isn't actually an effective way to get her needs met because then nobody can distinguish when she's annoyed over a minor nuisance from when her house has caught fire so they just learn to ignore her even when she says her house is on fire. They just find her bothersome and overly dramatic. But, to her, this is the same as when she grew up in the burning building. The takeaway isn't that she's being overly aggressive and dramatic about everything but that she needs to escalate even further. This is a common manifestation of complex trauma/BPD.

I think that the world we live in often feels like that burning building. Everything is on fire and our needs are not being met and even when we are grown adults we aren't really used to having much agency over any of the spaces most important to our lives. There's no point in making a polite suggestion to a corporation that doesn't care about you. You learn that the only effective method is to be loud and aggressive and demonstrate how severe the issue is in order to get attention.

And in this world, that is a necessary strategy very frequently. Municipal workers have to organize strikes just to get adequate PPE. It's awful. Even if we don't all have C-PTSD/BPD we are all living in the burning building and struggling to get people in power to listen to us and meet our needs.

But I feel like, just like the girl who grew up in a burning building, a lot of people have forgotten that not everything is a house fire. People will complain to me about really minor things at work as though if they don't use enough cuss words and extreme language I won't take them seriously that they're upset that we closed 15 minutes early to clean the carpets and didn't adequately publicize the hours modification.

Or someone in a discord server of 35–65 people will make demands of the mod team as if they're trying to convince a major corporation that if they don't change something minor about the server there will be a big media scandal and their stocks will tank.

"It fucking infuriates me that we don't have a separate channel for video games. It makes me not want to use the server it makes me so angry because it fucking sucks so much."

Like why are you making threats to take your business elsewhere during the first sentence you're even mentioning the problem? I encounter this a lot. It's like they don't know how else to express their wants or needs. They just know to emphasize how strong and extreme and important their need is using harsh and rude language to get what they want.

But, tbh? It's not effective. It makes it hard to tell what's actually important, makes people feel bad, and they just tune you out.

It's not morally wrong and like, as I said, people have learned to talk like this because in the world we live in it is frequently necessary to do so to get needs met. Being polite to the rich and powerful doesn't win union contracts.

But not everyone you talk to is the rich and powerful. It's worth it to instead be nice and amicable to people in your own community if you don't have a reason not to be in a particular case. It's not mandatory. It's just a nice thing to do.


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in reply to @shel's post:

I would say that's not so much being nice as it is the absence of being mean/rude.

Being mean takes effort, and so does being nice (imo), and I would say what you described is closer to neutral (which is fine)

I think that if you feel "uyggghhgg this fucking suuuucks" and then intentionally don't vocalize that and instead swallow that a little and say "Hey I have a suggestion to make this better" then that is called being nice

Yeah and sometimes it is too much effort which is why I do think it's morally neutral. It's nice for people to be nice in the way it's nice to have clean bedsheets but sometimes you don't have that and it's morally neutral

The Algorithm rewards engagement, and making people angry makes them engage, so everyone starts posting like they're pissed off and snarky, but it happens so slowly that nobody notices. Then those people (including me) come to a place like Cohost where people don't do that and it's a jarring but ultimately welcome change

Yeah, so much of that where everyone is very upset but there's no way to tell about what. One incident that turned me away from twitter for years (I know, that sounds like a good thing but it was twitter where I finally found other trans women so maybe not good to have spent years without that) was an argument that I'm pretty sure was between angry bigots insulting people like me and people like me firing back, but I honestly couldn't tell who was on which side because everyone had like 100 letters to say what they were saying which doesn't leave much space for anything but anger

I spend a lot of time wondering: "why are people so mean?" It makes me really happy to see someone address this, as trivial as it may be. I like this post a lot.

I have one question, though:

It's communicating the same thing

Is it really? Maybe I'm wrong here, so feel free to tell me why you disagree. But, to me, these two commands reflect completely different attitudes. The 'rude' one ("this piece of shit library...") is just so arrogant, entitled, and demanding. "I really don't care why the library doesn't have it, I just care that it's not immediately available to be served on a silver platter to me. Any possible explanation is irrelevant; your function is to serve me, and if you fail my expectations, you have no worth & do not deserve my respect. I'm more important than any other circumstance that could explain this failing." Meanwhile, the 'nice' one ("man, I'm disappointed...") acknowledges the disappointment, but doesn't assign blame to anyone. "I just got unlucky today. It's no big deal; after all, nothing's perfect. Let's fix this!"

I feel like many people default to the 'rude' response every time they are inconvenienced or do not understand the reasoning for something. These people fill me with visceral anger. So many wasted breaths are spent on this chest-thumping (particularly, but not exclusively, online). I hate how primitive and inconsiderate it is. I wish people would pause to evaluate the situation more often. We don't live in an optimal world. There will be problems and inconveniences. Embrace it! Humans are infinitely clever, and these inconveniences are really not so difficult to adapt to or work around if you're willing to endure a little discomfort.

Certainly, this isn't the most nuanced way to put all of this; simply accepting your fate isn't a great response to systemic issues. But there's a lot of energy wasted on trivial crap. And I hate it

really well put. it’s possible to ask for things in a way that doesn’t make other people feel worse, and someone being unwilling to go to that effort feels like a deliberate snub. “chest-beating” is exactly right—it’s an assertion of primate hierarchy. fuck that.

I think the messages intersect, i.e. they share a common bit of information that is communicated regardless, in this case that the person wants a book from the library and they want you to get it, but there is also an additional information that is sent by the person's attitude: how they feel about you, about the situation, etc.

Every "message" we send is a bundle of multiple messages, about a myriad of things.