stosb

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@stosb

wearer of programming socks

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mid 20s | bisexual | programmer | european

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stosb
@stosb
NoelBWrites
@NoelBWrites
NoelBWrites
@NoelBWrites

This started as a reply to this good post and kind of grew to be only slightly related, so I'm making it its own post.

a few years ago someone made me notice the "hidden constraints" people have for solving problems and how most of the time we don't even notice they're there until someone points them out.

klara
@klara

Yes to all of this.

I think I first got this idea into my head some years ago after reading a blog post about road design. It was written by a former engineer who used to get frustrated because local residents would object to what he knew The Research said made roads as safe as possible, until he realized that he, and The Research, always had the unspoken higher-than-safety priorities of moving as much traffic through the neighborhood as quickly as possible.

And yeah, money / the continued wealth and power of the already rich and powerful are hugely common hidden constraints. But they aren't the only ones, by far. So much baffling/frustrating/self-defeating shit that cishet men do, for instance, is because their #1 priority is the esteem of (real or imagined) other men and they're absolutely unable to admit this to themselves. And, similarly, so many people refrain from living a life that makes them happy because the idea of not living up to certain social class norms-- which can have real consequences, don't get me wrong-- is just not one they're willing to face.

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in reply to @NoelBWrites's post:

jackie---hollow
@jackie---hollow

this is something i've often lamented! in a wider sense, just an absolute failure of imagination on a societal level (kinda in the vein of fisher's capitalist realism). the recognition that an idea is not compatible with the existing system isn't seen as a failure of the latter but of the former every time. feels like that kind of conception is a driving force behind the "taking a principled stance will only get trump elected" type defeatism. there are so many people who recognize problems in the world quite clearly but are sooooo resigned to them being impossible to solve. i'm really disheartened how often people simply cannot imagine a better world.
(this is also a big part of why i enjoyed reading the dispossessed a while ago. it was really refreshing to see a serious attempt at exploring a fundamentally different way of organizing society!)

i'd also like to add though that this isn't limited to thinking about systematic problems. i unfortunately constantly observe how much my own mental action space (and even like, production of desires) is limited in much the same way - by instinctively rejecting things that go against long-ingrained notions. not a fan! so i just wanted to explicitly expand your appeal at the end to internal decisions also (not that you had excluded them or anything)

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us3r
@us3r

It would definitely be a difficult sudden transition. People could no longer be certain their labor would be compensated in a way that they deem fit. Sure people make art and stuff in their spare time but a fully funded team with great direction will have the ability to do a lot more and do it faster.

People have to actually want to do these things. To let go of security and familiarity for the potential of a better world. One that's been sabotaged over and over again.

OR: you can make enough money to pay your taxes, rent food and whatever else and enjoy what time you have off from work.

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CiaranVilnes
@CiaranVilnes

that's why information consolidation is important right. the more people understand how the world is bad and what can be done about it, the easier it is for movements to be put into motion. and being more aware of the various crises we face, extreme poverty and war and existential threats like climate change, would hopefully make people less selfish and more willing to sacrifice some of their luxuries and access to art to try to combat them.

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us3r
@us3r

I'm trying to remember who said it but it was something to the effect of "Once someone has lived in a mansion, why would they go back to a tenement?"

You'd have to almost itemize exactly how much you'd theoretically 'lose' down to the letter and even in doing that, it looks terrible. Like, I get that morally, unless you at least strive for something better, then you're essentially just as bad as neo-liberals who enjoy all the niceties of Capitalism deny any blood being on their hands.

It's tremendously difficult for me to not get negative here. In order for me to even see gay space communism the brass tracks would have needed to be laid down 40 or 50 years ago. If the US government explodes then like, maybe? People here would need a very real reason to fight against one of the largest police/militaries in the world.

tl;dr "I can imagine the end of the world before the end of capitalism" etc.

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CiaranVilnes
@CiaranVilnes

capitalist standards of living are extremely superficial. understanding the realities of environmental and resource sustainability, understanding social justice, delearning capitalist indoctrination like the belief that wealth is tied to people's worth. these things allow people to understand that a sideways, or slightly downward from a superficial perspective, shift in their living standards (such as to a system of more dense housing) are worth much more than the simple fact that the square feet of their house went down.

of course you can always say not enough people care about those things. they're fine with their car, they don't care about public transit. they plug their ears when environmentalism and social justice and capitalism come up. but our job is to scoop up the people that do care, no? set them to work as well. create a cascading effect that will change something about the world. regardless of if that world will end first. to be a little dramatic, people are counting on us!

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us3r
@us3r

Perhaps. Though I can greatly empathize with people that just want to get away from people. This nightmarish suburbia. If it's annoying now, imagine what it would be like even closer together? To be completely honest I wouldn't mind having modest house with a good amount of acreage surrounding it either.

You really need a clever way to ease into the realities you've mentioned cuz people's eyes will glaze over if you just start talking about it most of the time. Much like I said earlier, if it's easier to see it as this impending doom that's unstoppable you need to give them hope against the world literally ending.

I'm having to stop myself from preaching to the choir here. More so, anyway. If someone does have a plan on how to organize against- well, everything, I'm open to it. Not like I have much to lose in that regard.

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in reply to @klara's post:

NoelBWrites
@NoelBWrites

traffic and road design is such a good example of this "keeping cyclists/pedestrians safe is so complicated (without inconveniencing drivers for a single solitary second)"

And on a personal level gender and sexuality stuff is also a super common example. "I wish I could X (without being perceived as outside the cishet paradigm)"

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klara
@klara

Yeah, this hasn't happened to me directly, but I have friends who, after they came out, have had friends confess to them that they wish they could do the same but "aren't brave enough" to give up the respectable marriage that their rich conservative family approves of.

Which stings a lot to hear when a) you've sacrificed a fair bit of the same respectability / access to privilege by coming out and b) you see your friends living irresponsible double lives and hurting other people with how they act while they stay closeted.

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NoelBWrites
@NoelBWrites

God yeah, the point is that it shouldn't take bravery! We need to make it so it doesn't take bravery to come out! "how do I step outside of my role in the hierarchy without losing the privileges that come with it?" You don't, we need to smash the hierarchy instead.

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rotsharp
@rotsharp

i have been honest with these people in my life and just told them if it seems easier it is because i had nowhere near as much to lose and might have died if i hadnt chosen to sever my relationship with [power dynamic] because it was asking way more than i gained from it.

they do not tend to stick around long. weird. 😌

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stu
@stu

slightly tangential but it's absolutely wild how many people will straight up say "it's better for cyclists and pedestrians to die than for my commute to be ten minutes longer, they were asking for it for being on my streets"

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NoelBWrites
@NoelBWrites

I fully believe driving a car fucks with your sense of empathy. Having our entire infrastructure set up around driving as a primary mode of transportation is terrible for non-drivers, but it also fucks up drivers.

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rotsharp
@rotsharp

road rage is a thing so i believe it. i have years of experience eg being passed unsafely by a driver who burns rubber to scream around my bike so they can slam into the stop light one second sooner than me. in no world does this style of maneuver make sense to me unless it is one where they have zero conception of the idea that they are pressing human flesh with thousands of pounds of metal, on a lark.

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