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pervocracy
@pervocracy

a really good reason not to spank kids isn't even that it'll traumatize them, but it'll teach them, at an age where they're still absorbing the implicit rules of society, that the correct remedy for wrongdoing is an equal and opposite amount of pain.


in this lens there can be questions of proportionality--how much suffering is justified for a particular offense--but the answer can't be "none" unless you think the offense was actually a good thing. inflicting suffering is our means of expressing disapproval. often it is the only means considered sincere.

(and I have not been immune to this. I'm still not. it feels knee-jerk good to pay evil unto evil, especially in a world where that's often the only option available besides "pretend it didn't happen.")

for a while I held the position that spanking isn't that big a deal as long as you dispense it according to predictable rules and not in anger. I do still think it's relatively less harmful to make it about The Rules instead of directly about your feelings. but... isn't it still kinda fucked up to write "the way we will fix this problem is by hurting your butt" into your house rules?

even for time-outs, I think there's a difference between "this is to interrupt the behavior and let you cool off" vs. "it's not fun having to stand in the corner, is it?" that's extremely important.

this isn't actually parenting advice. what it really is, is a scream of exasperation at the way so many adults talk about problems in terms of "looks like somebody, somewhere, needs to be suffer more! let's fix crime by spanking criminals harder. let's fix war by spanking our enemies harder. let's fix the economy by spanking people for not working. let's fix healthcare by spanking people who don't have Healthy Habits. I am a hammer and punishment is my only nail. I am a very serious practical thinker."

and, I don't know, maybe they'd be less like this if they were raised with a mentality of "when you cause a problem, you have to work hard to fix it" instead of "when you cause a problem, you deserve to be hurt."


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in reply to @pervocracy's post:

One aspect of this that I haven’t really resolved for myself is that people like to talk about “natural consequences” being the best kind of consequences for bad behaviour. And broadly speaking, I agree; many poor choices genuinely do have unpleasant natural consequences that ideally would provide an opportunity for learning! But any consequences that an authority figure is enforcing are not, strictly speaking, “natural”. Furthermore, there are many visible instances of people engaging publicly in bad behaviour who never face any consequences for it at all; in that sense, I think it can be argued that there’s nothing particularly “just” about “natural consequences”.

So the whole idea seems, ultimately, to be a rationalization to paper over the fact that children don’t socialize themselves, and the task of parents is to co-create their socialization in a way that, hopefully, traumatizes them the least.

Yeah, I hate when people use "consequences" to describe punishment. It's great when wrongdoing does have natural consequences--break your toy? you don't get to play with it anymore--but that doesn't work for every undesirable thing a child might do.

And as a childless person I don't have some coherent full theory of child discipline, I just think that "the only rule is don't make Mommy angry, and the punishment is Mommy gets to act out her anger on you" can't possibly be it.

We don’t punish our kid at all, we just diverted them when they were little and now explain why things need to happen / not happen. They’ve never been so much as yelled at. They have turned out very conscientious, too conscientious really, we are often having to explain that everyone makes mistakes and they don’t need to confess all their ( very minor ) sins. Sometimes I think smacking would have instilled a healthy sense of rebellion at our arbitrary unfairness but even if I meant that seriously I can’t imagine bringing myself to do it.