sundry

misc dried goods

꩜ Maker of silly things

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I am not going to put much effort into arguing this because I fundamentally don’t actually care all that much but I feel like trying to come up with more descriptive names for genres is kind of pointless and misses the fact that genres are not prescriptive categories but cultural movements that evolve over time.

Like I always roll my eyes in kind of the same way at people making jokes about “is The Wizard of Oz an isekai?”, or hell, “is the story of Oisín in Tír na nÓg an isekai?” because like, sure if you want to make a rigid category of story criteria for what an isekai is, but that doesn’t actually say anything useful or interesting or funny, other than to say that the central idea is a simple one that has existed for a long time. But it doesn’t really say anything about the genre, how it is used, its conventions or the culture around it.

And complaining that metroidvania isn’t really descriptive of what the genre is and it should be called an exporation platformer or whatever is like. The name doesn’t need to be functionally descriptive. Any game in which you play a role is not a role-playing game, because role-playing games are a specific genre with specific conventions and expectations and cultural significance. Metroidvanias are not just a mashup of those series’ games and have evolved over time into their own thing and it is fine that we still call them metroidvanias. It has taken on its own meaning. Adventure games as a genre don’t really resemble Collosal Cave Adventure that much. Roguelikes do not resemble Rogue. That’s fine. They are their own things. What they were originally named for is just etymological trivia.

Or maybe you just don’t like how the word “metroidvania” sounds in which case I dunno get over it.


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in reply to @sundry's post:

"Roguelikes do not resemble Rogue" bothers me a little because of games like Necrodancer and Mystery Dungeon that do resemble Rogue... I'd argue that "Roguelikes that resemble Rogue" and "Roguelikes that resemble Isaac" are distinct genres that accidentally share a name.

But like, you're right -- all that matters is 'does the genre set useful expectations' and in that specific sense 'roguelike' succeeds at communicating.

...then again, "arcade" already communicates exactly the same thing... right?

Well I’d say the defining difference between roguelike and arcade (when arcade is not just being used to mean “deliberately un-simulation-like”) is maps that are generated per playthrough. Arcade games tend to be pretty consistent per playthrough.

I am curious as someone who doesn’t like roguelikes much at all but has played a little of Necrodancer and Isaac what makes you say that the former resembles Rogue (which I haven’t ever played at all) and the later doesn’t, because the systems they used seemed very similar to me. Going down various levels through a dungeon with randomised layouts and enemies and a boss every few floors, limited ability to heal, shops with random items, unlocking characters with different systems or starting abilities, etc. What would you say is the characteristic difference between the two?

A hallmark of Rogue (1980) is its D&D-like turn-based tile-based combat. Necrodancer is fundamentally a turn-based game, it just bends that mechanic by putting the 'turns' on a heartbeat. Although I suppose one could argue that Isaac just bends that mechanic even further, if each encounter can be considered a single turn, and each room a single tile? I suppose like all genres, there's a wide spectrum, and Isaac is sort of my "tipping point" between Rogue (1980) and something wholly arcade-ified like Vampire Survivors.

I also consider Spelunky a "rogue-ish" game, although that one's harder to justify. Maybe I just personally feel like the 'tile dungeon' aspect is the most unique thing about Rogue compared to other dungeon crawlers, whereas other people feel that any amount of randomization is notable?