sylvie

beware of my sword

hello! i'm just a little sylvie, i like posting on this web site. meow meow meow

left half of love ♥ game, with @aria-of-flowers


last share was interesting to read because.... well, i make small-scope exploration platformers all the time, but they're almost never "metroidvanias" the way the author of the post describes. i'm interested in exploration games that are very open-ended and lightly gated and it seems like that kinda dodges the scope explosion problem a little. in that context, you don't really need to "add optional content" to encourage exploration because the premise is already that the game is highly nonlinear and people will have to pick some paths and ignore others until later. you don't need to make the map bigger, you just need to make sure every part of your small map is dense and interesting, no matter what path you take across it. (okay, that's easier said than done but the scope is smaller in the sense of map size at least)

sylvie lime is a good example because i literally decided the entire map size and total number of items somewhat arbitrarily near the start of development, and just kinda filled it in, and never felt any compulsion to extend it. the scope creep in that game came up when i decided to add a complicated storyline instead of just making it only about platforming around a world

i don't mean to come across as like "haha i am better because i dodge scope creep" because that's not it, it's a matter of different goals, but it's interesting to me that changing your goals has such a strong effect. "metroidvania" devs are also trying to make games where exploration is interesting, but the genre conventions mean "interesting" corresponds to bigger worlds with more items and more systems and i'm not kidding. my design goals lead me to try to make exploration interesting by densely packing a small world using a small number of systems (which i'm not saying is necessarily "better" or suitable for every game, but makes it easier to avoid scope creep).

(the shared post also helps me understand why hollow knight is so freaking huge, to the point where i bounced off it when i tried it, because it felt like a lot of rooms didn't excite me and were just there to make the map bigger. it's probably not that "they wanted a big map" but that "their other design goals drove them to keep making the map bigger"....)


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in reply to @sylvie's post:

This plus the previous post are really cool complements and great behind-the-scenes into this kind of game design. I too bounced off of Hollow Knight and most Metroidvanias, but loved stuff like Sylvie Lime and Elephantasy: Flipside. I really like these small-but-dense games, lots of little nooks and crannies to poke at and come back to later.

you don't really need to "add optional content" to encourage exploration because the premise is already that the game is highly nonlinear and people will have to pick some paths and ignore others until later. you don't need to make the map bigger, you just need to make sure every part of your small map is dense and interesting, no matter what path you take across it.

I think this is it. "You found the Blue Keyhole which means you need to come back when you have the Blue Key" is not terribly interesting, especially when the items are on the other side of huge, largely empty maps filled only with respawning enemies. Adding in more colored keys and matching keyholes is technically "more content," but I'd rather have a game with less but more interesting and meaningful areas to explore.

(just as a note, i intentionally didn't tag mokka because this was meant to be more of a personal musing than a "reply", i felt it would be insensitive to respond like "well i don't have this problem because i do things differently" when mokka was talking about struggling with their game and wanting to give up. i also don't think my approach is "better" or anything, i just found both mokka's post and the contrast with my experiences interesting, so i wanted to talk about it on a personal level)

Also to clarify, I also do not think your approach is better or that Mokka's wrong, I personally prefer one type of game (exploration over Metroidvanias) and these two posts helped to clarify for me why that was. I probably should have made my own post rather than as a reply to your personal post.

great post (this and the one this is a "reply" to) and i also want to say

decided the entire map size and total number of items somewhat arbitrarily near the start of development

this is kinda inspiring and i'll have to try this myself to make (and actually finish) a little game sometime!

i've been eyeing some similar arbitrary-restriction-based scope management for one of my own projects. a roguelike in my case, but when i look at other higher-budget roguelikes with much more expansive item selections, i similarly have to remind myself that i'm shooting for something much more condensed, not the same degree of replayability. different goals, different techniques.