sylvie

beware of my sword

hello! i'm just a little sylvie, i like posting on this web site. meow meow meow

left half of love ♥ game, with @aria-of-flowers


i saw an interesting long post on here about mario and sonic which asserted at the start that neither franchise had made any significant impact on game design since the 90s (the rest of the post, thus, largely ignores the canonical entries and focuses on fan works). that's probably true but it made me want to write about the one thing i still find interesting about the legal mario games, which is the progression of ideas in the 3d exploration-focused entries (64/sunshine/odyssey)


super mario 64 was released in the 90s and was obviously the most groundbreaking and influential of these three titles. an aspect of it that i think is hugely important, but often ignored or even criticized, is that every time you get a star (except the 100-coin stars) it kicks you out of the level, and you have to start from the beginning next time you enter. this combined with mario's complex moveset and a lot of clever level design is the main reason why i like this game. kicking you back to the start gives you an opportunity to try alternate routes and discover shortcuts using advanced moves. for example, whomp's fortress opens with a little section where you run past some moving blocks and enemies, which most new players will probably go through, but once you know how to double jump it's easy to skip the whole thing. many shortcuts require more difficult moves like the side flip or wall kick. finding and taking these shortcuts is satisfying enough that for me, it completely counteracts any frustration or boredom from having to replay the level. and even the levels that have more of an "open field" vibe have a lot of vertical barriers you can either walk around or bypass with skillful jumps.

i think it's a bit like the often-maligned use of "lives" in older games. in a game that uses lives well, like umihara kawase, being kicked back to the start of the game isn't a waste of your time, it's an opportunity to experiment with new strategies, explore things you missed, and reveal additional depth you'd never see if you didn't have to replay levels. (super mario 64 has a lives system but it's almost completely vestigial, the mario games seem to have forgotten why lives are interesting very quickly)

banjo kazooie, released after super mario 64 and heavily inspired by it, lets you stay in the level after you get a "jiggy" and i find it much less interesting as a result. the levels feel more like there are a bunch of setpieces and you go around to each setpiece and do the thing, and then that part of the level becomes useless. even when you die and get kicked out of the level, traversing the levels felt like a much less interesting problem to me than in super mario 64 and they feel a lot more "flat" even when there are some vertical climbing sections.

i haven't actually explored a lot of the n64 platformer library (aside from rare's other masterpiece donkey kong 64, which works the same way as banjo) but the fact that this whole genre started being referred to as "collectathons" (derogatory) suggests to me that not many games actually took cues from super mario 64, which is not really a game about "collecting stuff", it's a game that constantly presents you with interesting and open-ended navigation problems.

that's why i find it delightful that nintendo recognized the strength of this design and kept the system where they boot you out of the level in super mario sunshine, rather than following what rare did in their very popular and successful games that were often considered better than super mario 64 by contemporary critics. i don't have a lot else to say about sunshine except that i like it a lot (some people don't) and that i don't think the water pack detracts from the design (rather, it's another fun aspect of mario's moveset to master)

then nintendo made a bunch of 3d mario games that were a lot less open-ended and focused more on "linear with side paths for secrets" platforming challenges in the vein of the 2d mario games, and i largely don't care about any of these (i played galaxy 1 and 2 and i think i liked them but i don't really remember anything)

finally, they made another cool 3d mario game, super mario odyssey. this one ditches the "kick you out of the level" system! but i was happy to find that nintendo still remembered why exploration-focused 3d mario is interesting. odyssey still requires you to repeatedly traverse old areas and find new shortcuts and master the movement, but this time, it's because there are hundred of secret moons to collect littered everywhere around the world. you are guaranteed to miss some and have to circle back later! this is a "collectathon", but not in the banjo vein where you go to the 10 setpieces and get the 10 gold things. instead there's an arbitrary amount of stuff to find everywhere, and it could be in plain sight but hard to reach, it could have a puzzle associated with it, it could require finding a non-obvious entrance, it could be invisible and hidden underground, or whatever. odyssey keeps the interesting movement and traversal of 64 and sunshine alive while having more of a scavenger hunt structure than a mission-based structure, and i found it fresh and interesting. i do think the postgame where they arbitrarily open up a bunch of big boxes that contain more moons was a little tacky, but i liked the game a lot overall.

other than odyssey i have played very few modern mario games. i haven't played 3d land or 3d world or bowser's fury (which might be the same thing as 3d world?) and i stopped keeping up with the 2d ones after new super mario bros. wii. i'm sure they're all fine and have some solid linear action gameplay and fun levels and stuff like that. but in my opinion, linear action platformers have long progressed beyond the need for super mario. nonetheless, i remain interested in what nintendo ends up doing with the exploration-focused 3d mario games.


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in reply to @sylvie's post:

thanks for writing this! the fact that i never related the term "collectathon" to Super Mario 64 i think is a testament to how well that "kick you out of the level" system worked

i also adored Odyssey, tho i'd also encourage you to check out Bowser's Fury at some point - it's a different game than 3D World and has an open-world thing going on that's pretty interesting. it kinda gives off a vibe like "okay let's just do a little experiment and see if this structure is any good - we'll pack it with a known banger just in case it sucks". i'm not sure if it ends up being revolutionary (i mostly forgot about it until just now) but i did enjoy my time with in a way i haven't with many other modern mario games

i'm quite a fan of the "game kicking you out" approach in super mario 64 because, similar to your point in creating alternate routes, it makes for interesting speedruns and challenge runs.

it becomes an interesting obstacle to move around. stuff like the a button challenge turns otherwise mundane stuff into real challenging obstacles because "you can't stay in the stage forever, everything gets reset".

it's interesting to think of it in a casual context. i suppose the whole idea behind games encouraging the exploration of alternate routes is similar to how some games encourage speedrunning. this is why DOOM's levels are so memorable in terms of exploration: you're rewarded for knowing new shortcuts and secrets, which make gameplay more optimal and faster -- and it isn't limited to speedruns but casual play too.

basically, what makes for interesting speedruns can usually make for interesting replayable gameplay

umihara kawase is so ridiculously good. as much as i enjoy sayonara umihara kawase, it can't match the tension of being low on lives in the first couple of games, or the feeling of zooming though the starting levels to quickly get back to where you were previously.

and super mario 64 rules too! i've always been fine with it kicking you out of the level when you get a star but i never sat and thought about how much worse it would feel if it didn't do that. totally agree about 2d mario also. thanks for posting this!

this reminded me, i don’t think people talk enough about how pikmin’s level design and "collectathon" mechanics follow directly in the footsteps of super mario 64. it even intensifies the element of being kicked out of the level that you talk about by giving a strict timer, which makes you have to really learn the levels and open up paths so that you can plan your next route through it.

if you are talking about mazes shifting in terms of finding abilities. well i appreciate galaxy i think it gives shifting maze in terms of finding contexts.
it has setpieces to bring along only normal jump users that you easily find ways to go without, but its fun to think about the other types of things that may have been intended for the mysterious kids.
i notice the setpiecing is actually pretty similar to Bobo, separate from the forcing you to respect power stars vs lives and orbs.
there is extra dimensions and text which travels you faster and fewer secrets or little places, but you kindof are asked to make the little places and slow down, with the different type of/non physical thing to find.
if it has less to hide on the ground, maybe it feels more _ at the sight of a planet. i really like how they are arranged in the convenient sky space..

i've never seen someone actually describe why Mario 64, BK, and Odyssey all feel different but you nailed it! i like all 3 games but the Mario ones definitely make you engage with the movement mechanics more because of the repetition (and just having better moves).

Mario 64 in particular really likes having "halfway point stars" that are strictly a subset of later ones but then it works because you'll do way better on the overlapping part the second time around. Sunshine actually enforces this by having a fixed mission order so you can't just go somewhere and see if there's something there anymore, but it means it doubles down on "do the same thing better this time" since it shows you where to go and you need to figure out the fastest/best way to get there.