• she/her

Recently appeared on this plane. Last seen: Posting (in a serif font) and/or casting spells. my icon and header image are turned around on purpose actually its not like i dont know how to fix it or anything. my age is private information but if you feel the need to know it presume i'm somewhere between 18 and the age you are and treat me accordingly


dante
@dante

i have long held that when the romans adopted christianity they fundamentally changed the religion, since you can't really go from "religion of the slaves/underclasses" to "religion of kings" without necessarily changing some aspects, but it's fascinating to see how that plays out a couple hundred years later in the early medieval when the Bulgars decide to go christian almost entirely as a political move -- their steppe rivals would have already been partially christian and they are definitely realizing that if you start worshipping this "jesus" guy then all these other powerful empires suddenly like you a lot more, and it would be nice to have that byzantine military behind you if you're facing off against the magyars or whatever

which is so interesting to me because it's this clear difference from the role of religion in antiquity (where i would argue it was generally speaking not considered THAT important in the role of proto-state-power) to the medieval/post-roman world where it's now a CRUCIAL part of "international" relations -- christianity has become a sort of cultural poker chip that you can acquire if you want to be on the side of the other "christian nations"

which is, of course, kind of ridiculous! right! like, "spirituality" or religion or whatever is as much a personal set of beliefs as it is a political one (though as i say that perhaps i'm showing my post-enlightenment cultural brainwashing anyway) and as soon as you start mixing the two things start getting really weird (which i would argue led to a lot of christian culture becoming so fragmented in the hundreds of years to come -- both for good and for ill)

but it IS undoubtedly this clear shift: religion that was once meant to explain the world, a sort of protoscience if you will, is now CLEARLY in the realm of statecraft, which just wasn't really how statecraft worked a few hundred years earlier.

like if nothing else this is making me even more sure in my general belief that so fucking much can happen in the period of only a few dozen years that the superstructures of daily life in a marxist sense are rendered absolutely alien to someone who lived only a generation or two ago


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in reply to @dante's post:

I've been looking pretty in depth into the history of Christianity lately and I would say you're likely broadly correct here but are maybe missing a few details about how Christianity was always very fragmented, even before it became endorsed as the state religion of the Roman Empire. I do believe the overall nature of it shifted during adoption, but what amounts to a cult following of one individual based primarily on word of mouth for decades and centuries will inherently fracture into subcultures based on locality. This isn't unique to Christianity either, it's even the case for lots of pagan polytheistic practices. I think what the Romans did to fundamentally change Christianity is the attempt to create true homogeneity via orthodoxy to continue to aptly use it for statecraft and empire retention. Which obviously didn't go so well for them and really just continued it down the path it had been going since it started.

I don't think that changes the conclusion you're drawing here, it might even support it further, but it's a fun detour to walk down.

Really good points and I agree! I think the nature of a "state religion" coupled with the specific features of Christianity (apocalyptism, martyrdom, jealous god, specific rules for worship and daily life) almost guaranteed that any attempt at homogeneity would exacerbate contradictions, lol.

Absolutely. I think the morphing of "worship me above all other gods" to "worship me to the exclusion of all other gods" to "I am the one true God no others exist" is really fascinating to follow as a major factor here too. (Except in gnosticism. There are so many gods in gnosticism. You ever really looked into gnosticism?? That shit is so weird)

Oh I love Data over Dogma, I've also been listening to Bart Ehrman's podcast a lot too, among audiobooks and great courses and such. I'm currently specifically in a Mormon deep dive, seeing how the sausage is made there is absolutely reframing my perspective on religion as a whole. There's a lot of repeating patterns of leader behaviours and religious movements, it's very enlightening