tangleworm

Art and Game Person

At age 6 I was named after Justin Timberlake (unfortunately).
I'm making https://magnesiumninja.itch.io/nomia right now!



MOOMANiBE
@MOOMANiBE

Idk, I get we're in the frustrated zone rn but if you're going after roguelikes and "traditional procedurally generated content" as AI-adjacent where do you stop? I use an LOT of procgen animation in the game I'm working on right now because there are things that would be straight-up impossible to do without it - that doesn't make it NOT something made with intentionality. If I spend hours building a system that makes a character dynamically come to a stop, is it "not handcrafted enough" because a computer is enacting it, even though I specifically created the parameters to get what I wanted?

This kind of argument massively misses the point to me. AI is a plagiarism engine, and it's also specifically not a tool. It's a black box where idea guys put things in and get random garbage out. Imo to compare it to - to place it alongside traditional procgen is to do a massive disservice to the amount of creative effort that goes into making quality procgen work.


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in reply to @MOOMANiBE's post:

I mean, I'm not going after any traditional procedural content, I just can't enjoy it in the same way I used to. I don't think it's wrong to make traditional procgen or that people should stop doing it or that others shouldn't enjoy it, but I have to acknowledge that my personal relationship to it has shifted in a really sad way. I'm very cognizant of how much human work goes into making a good procedural system!

I dunno, this just doesn't make any sense to me. For procgen to be "damaged" by the existence of AI garbage is drawing an equivalency that massively over-credits how "AI" even works. I can't view this any other way than ceding rhetorical ground to the people who are actually anti-art

Well, it's a feeling and not really a rational argument. I don't think other people should feel the same way or want them to. Maybe it's an unhelpful feeling to express; it's an irrational unhappiness about the world and not really based on any comparison that holds water.

I think this is more specific than being about procgen as a tool; I think it's more about the specific apophenia that procgen (or at least the generative text field of procgen I've worked in) is meant to produce. I feel like that aesthetic isn't really something I enjoy right now because I see a similar rhetorical tool (LLMs also function through apophenia, although their creators don't understand or appreciate this) being used in ways that make me sick.

I guess to me the key element here is that LLMs have no true intentionality to them, and that's key to much of imo why AI is objectionable; it's explicitly anti-creative, it rejects any attempt at authorship. It's just a cultural blender.

Imo that distinction is part of WHY ai is anti-art - it's intentionally designed to operate like an external contractor, it outsources the entire creative process. It's upper management reflected in a system. Even if you left out the plagiarism I'd still strongly feel AI is objectionable for this reason alone.

And so like, to me it's like - AI proponents want us to draw these conceptual equivalencies so they can point and go 'see, it's just like what real gamedevs do, we're the same.' But it's not, and every specific way it's not are like, the very core reasons AI is objectionable to begin with. If we let those distinctions fade away in our minds, how can we meaningfully resist AI's encroachment on our lives? How can we argue against it?

agreed and cosigned both sides. personally i don't feel critical of any of the kinds of systems you described, rationally or not, and it's abhorrent and obnoxious the way bigtime grifters hijack and poison every adjacent concept to their stupid shtick with their lies

This is why I don't use "AI" as a term, I use generative models or LLM or what have you, because AI is a label that does apply to fields adjacent to procgen and includes a ton of shit that isn't plagiarism, but the discourse has been so poisoned by the current grift's preferred use of language that no one can understand one another anymore.

I think a big difference among others is that procgen in games is typically very bespoke. There’s not really that i know of many highly generalized traditional procgen tools/systems because the way every game uses it is gonna be unique, so you’re gonna be building your own system (or adapting more granular tools) into whatever game you’re making; whereas using a gpt backend or whatever is something that is highly generalized that just kinda gets dropped in. Part of the idea is that you don’t have to build a special system anymore, you just plug in prompts to a cloud architecture you’ll never control. And if GPT tools go through a bad time and stop working as well, it’s also gonna make your game suck more. If the service changes or goes away or becomes more expensive suddenly your game might be fucked or just stop working. It turns perfectly good single player experiences into yet another live service game of sorts.

To build off the first paragraph (because I don't have much to add to the second beyond "I agree with it", and that feels too insubstantial to me): the main thing that's frustrated me regarding AI discourse is a lot of the good/necessary points against AI are muddled up with more reactionary stances; or at least ones that aren't thought out as much as they need to be. In particular, people will tend to reify intent in a way that aligns uncomfortably well with Walter Benajmin's negative theology of pure art. (Edit: I found the other Benjamin passage I originally wanted to quote. Scroll down to Louis-Philippe or the Interior.)

I suspect most of that comes down to who populates my social circles: artists, writers, musicians, game developers - individual artisans who rationally recognize this new technology as a threat to their livelihoods, but who lack the depth of perspective needed to mount a meaningful offense against it. (Or something. I'm surprised I was able to wrangle out something vaguely coherent.)

one thing i've been saying and thinking is that art is a form of communication, and generative output cannot be art because it is not communicating from or to anything. there are no thoughts, feelings, or intents; it is just a barren kaleidoscope.

i've had people challenge this idea and it's stood up even under pointless hypotheticals; if they want to get around it they have to concede that they believe art can be totally empty and meaningless (which they sometimes do,,)

bruno also alludes above about its reliance on apophenia, the human tendency towards false inference of meaning, intent, or a larger whole (the only thing that makes these systems appear potentially useful). these systems are designed to couch and gift-wrap bare empty noise in trojan horse trappings that exploit our apophenia, smuggling this emptiness into wherever they can. newer and fancier generations of these systems haven't begun to try to alter their essential nature at all, only to build bigger and fancier horses

As a longtime procgen dev and enjoyer, it's been a weird experience to look at present-day GenAI talking points, because they were all settled long ago in the space of Proc Gen.

  • Proc Gen is a cost saving measure. Would Notch, Redigit, Derek Yu, and a whole slew of last decade's indies been able to punch above their weight and challenge the AAA's without it?
  • Proc Gen can be soulless. But only if your designer decision was to push a button to get back a perlin heightmap, or Binary Space Partition and call it a day. Bad (or just old) roguelikes used to do that. Now, there is so much that an actual designer would do on top of it.
  • Proc Gen is unintentional, that's the point- to see new behaviors emerge that weren't programmed in and surprise us in unexpected ways.

We've even had more experimental indies play with text-generating markov chains that were trained on centuries-old public domain text. Or level-generating WaveFunctionCollapse trained off of internally developed level presets.

All of this was an open and shut case in the last decade, where the advantages were clearly recognized, the flaws were acknowledged constructively, and the quirks were taken by the crazier artists to go into their own wild directions. The discussion was healthy.

If anything, those similarities between last decade's proc gen and this decade's GenAI should be a guiding light for how this new technology is supposed to be applied.

  • Don't use it to empower AAA's to cut their teams of 10 designers to 1. Use it to empower indies where one person can now generate a world it would've taken 10 designers a decade to make by hand.
  • Don't settle for just pressing a button with a one sentence prompt and call it a day. Give more nuanced details, train a fine-tune/LoRA with work you intentionally selected, and weave the results together with your own handcrafted content to make something that shows your specific style.
  • Don't look at the quirks and hallucinations and declare it unfit for your use case. Take what you find as a novelty, and build your use case around it. Maybe it's useful, maybe it's not- but it's that exploration that constitutes what art is itself.

The only thing that's changed between last decade's markov experiments and this decade's GPT was that people started training models off things that weren't theirs. The answer is simple: don't. Developers have done it before, and they continue to do so. They provide the correct example.

Decades ago, designing a dungeon layout with a couple of setpieces and enemies used to be considered creative. We broke down all the techniques that made "good layouts" entertaining, and packaged them to run into infinity, for anyone else to use. If it were to be used by someone else, that program doesn't reflect the user's intentionality- there's no understanding of the nuances that went into it. But that's the nature of middleware- they'll use it to make something of their own. The automation didn't destroy the art of creating. We, the humans, just got more creative.

my very tinfoil hat opinion has always been that ML criticism is always bound to turn around on real artists. and in the same way hypervigilant policing of images for "ai tells" leads to witch hunting an illustrator who's bad at drawing hands, i think the focus on "lack of author" as a primary problem with MLgen makes a turn on all procedural art inevitable.