tef

bad poster & mediocre photographer

  • they/them

tef
@tef

programmers are weird. you'll hear them say things like this:

code is unique. it's original sin so pure that even the catholic church is jealous. code is like nothing that has come before, and code will change everything that comes after.

and almost in the same breath, you'll hear something like this:

actually code is like engineering in that we make big and impressive things, or like art, because people think art's cool, and we're cool. code is exactly like some other profession with status, but with harder problems.

it might seem like cognitive dissonance but the truth is simpler: programers want you to think they're cool, which means programming has to be like some other cool thing, or just simply cooler than anything else going around.

now, it would be easy to dismiss these ideas off the bat, but some people take a more evidence based approach.

one person emailed a bunch of engineers, and the engineers wrote back to say "yes, code is like engineer". science works, etc. if only we had emailed social science students to ask if coding was like a survey, they could have checked our methods.

one fatal issue with the survey? engineers like to think everything they do is like engineering.

one engineer might tell you "running is engineering" because they've spent three days drawing route maps. another engineer might tell you "cooking is like engineering" and i barely need to tell you why. engineers are like that.

programmers are like that too: we like to pretend the skills we learned are unique, and thus applying those skills to a new subject is novel, creative, and interesting. it's probably the one thing we have in common with actual certified engineers.

in practice, programming and engineering are miles apart.

in engineering,

  • there are legal consequences for poor construction, and sometimes they're enforced
  • companies hire certified engineers to pass the buck to them
  • certified engineers get to say no, albeit not easily
  • certified engineers have a professional body, or union, backing them up

i'm not sure we can easily say the same about programming.

  • there's fuck all consequences, if any. data loss is routine. breaches aren't reported.
  • companies will fire you for saying no, and they'll blackball you if you speak out
  • good luck convincing the ACM to back you up in court. the EFF or ALCU might help you if you're a nazi, but you're shit out of luck otherwise

now if someone asks you, "is programming like engineering?", you can tell them, "well, we are cowboys in a wholly unregulated market, but yes, we also do some project management" and hopefully change the topic onto something more interesting.

really, the truth of the matter is far simpler. programming is a medium. you can put engineering in it, art in it, whatever you like.

it's still for nerds though, sorry you'll never be cool.


tef
@tef

i know i said "code is a medium" and "you can do art, design, engineering, whatever with code"

but it is very funny to me that programmers go "we're like engineers" when bureaucrat is right there

"what do you do" i create forms, send them to people, then people fill in the forms and i approve or reject requests with a 200, 400 or 500 code number. "it's just like building bridges"


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in reply to @tef's post:

i mean all of these points were covered in that survey, except the part where all the points you made only apply to a subset of traditional engineering fields. like civil engineering and stuff, but not even all disciplines of mechanical engineering

i think more the point is that much of the time these programmers desperately want to be revered in line with their salaries, as if to justify them. let the world align and show the outline of the meritocracy that's definitely there, for sure; it's not because it's leveraged and highly adaptable for exploitation, it's because it's important and the future, they at least hope. then they try not to think too hard about it i guess

programmers trying to make programming cool is irrefutable evidence that it isn't cool. trying is an automatic disqualification from coolness. skateboarders don't try to argue that skateboarding is like engineering, because being like skateboarding is fucking cool

So here's the thing- in my flesh-form my training and background is Physics.

and a Lot of Time (amongst undergrads) is spent discussig what's a 'real science' and what's the 'best science' and so on "hurr hurr biology is like stamp collecting".

Similar vibes to the question above.
let me tell you the answer to both questions: "Who gives a solitary shit? Sort your life out fam"

These are the kinds of questions asked and posed by the deeply insecure trying to like you said, "be cool". It demeans everyone involved.

More important questions are "does it make you happy? Does it make others happy? Is it useful? Does it save lives?" but people don't tend to ask those questions because if you're doing R&D for KILLCORP MISSLES LTD or writing code to best extract money from the financial market for BASTARDBANK LLC the answers are maybe too enlightening.

in reply to @tef's post:

okay i'm totally on board with this and maybe you have a different experience or informed view but, in terms of actually building bridges in my experience, ironically yeah it is a lot of sending forms and approving or rejecting forms based on code numbers. civil engineers are often pulling pieces off-the-shelf according to what has previously passed code, running through the code books and making sure all the numbers match up and fit standards, and then there's a lot of sending forms and stamping/rejecting things. 90% of my job at an architecture firm was just checking and updating the building code books on hand, printing out plans, and filling out forms lol

the shitty rickety structures are invisible but the harms are just as real tbh

so i mean my view is it could be laudable and impressive like bridge engineering. unfortunately everyone is doing a terrible job and they don't plan on changing, yet they also want to appear cool commensurate to their wildly inflated salaries