theartofkombat

I like stuff and draw things

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Honestly just excited to be here. I'm a Hispanic, bi, non-binary, self-taught artist, burlesque dancer, and witch. I can't really list any favorite things because ND object impermanence. But I do enjoy talking to people and taking commissions when I have the energy, so drop me a line!



amaranth-witch
@amaranth-witch

...or something like that. hi! I'm very tired and frustrated by trying to explain a thing to someone who just isn't getting it and so I'm going to try to express it here, directly, and see if it gets across. Okay? Okay. Okay!

so I made what I now recognize as a mistake expressing a certain opinion in one of the gaming talk-groups I'm in (no details will be shared: if you were there you know this discussion already, if you weren't I'm not snitching, overall the place is Perfectly Fine, don't worry) and stating that I have a not-just-nostalgic fondness for the style of RPG which has fairly exhaustive gear lists. You know, Cyberpunk2020/Shadowrun style, where you may get the generic "Pistol, Heavy" entry but even that will have range brackets and magazine size and fire-select modes and you can select the order of bullets you load into the magazine, and then if you're lucky you'll have 20 more "Pistol, Heavy" variations with manufacturer names and their own quirks and frequently it's just NERPS but sometimes it's minute mechanical variations and if you're REALLY lucky you'll get pictures of 25% of the guns or more

oh, what's NERPS, if you don't know, NERPS is Non-Essential Role-Playing Stuff (affectionate). Like how it's probably never going to MATTER-matter that Papa Murphy's Authentic Old-World Irish Burrito And Sushi Hut ("Smells like Food!") has a promotion going on where if you buy $55 worth of Neon List items you get a day-glo branded bracelet that's good for Bonus Points off your orders for the next month, but it makes the world and game feel that much more connected? World-building (affectionate) instead of world-building (derogatory), because it's something your players COULD use if they wanted, you just don't know how, instead of something no one really cares about because it doesn't actually touch anyone. NERPS is great. I love NERPS. Anyhow.

The point is, I love Gratuitous Gear Lists (usually, when they're decently done) and Indulgent Equipment And Style Books. Especially for indie RPGs; when a single-author, close-knit-co-op, small-studio or small-press line puts out an Indulgent Style Book, that usually means that the game is doing well enough to afford the indulgence, which is, dare I say it, fucking awesome. And folks in the chat were generally on board with this, albeit grudgingly. It's when I tried to explain that no, I liked them as themselves as well, not just as signifiers, I actually like the product and the artistry that I started getting confused pushback and 3 people actually straight telling me

No you don't

Which like. Excuse you. You are not on the council that decides what I think.

But I still wanted to explain why I liked them because in theory this is a chatgroup explicitly for game design, and I was asked there because the chat owner specifically wanted my perspective on things, so what the hey, let's try, right? And we started with the usual suspects, things like "having a list helps me know what's out there"
(the response was "yeah but no one needs a list to do that, just make it up")
"OK but having a list lets me know what the shape of "make it up" looks like"
("uh, but a good game shouldn't need that, you can just start from the base and go until it fits")
"Yes but the list lets me know the kind of shape of experience that the writers were aiming at in a very tangible way"
("but if they're doing their job you shouldn't need that, it should be in the text?")
"The list is part of the text"
("No it isn't, it's retro-gaming cruft, it's wasted words, what the fuck")

And that didn't really go anywhere so I tried something different. This is the part which is actually really relevant-relevant, this is the part where I'm like... if this doesn't make sense, I don't know how I can talk to you.

Two Directions Of Drama

Since I brought in the lens of "guns and gear lists", the situation I used was a violent one: how many bullets are left in the gun? One of the big examples is Clint Eastwood's famous delivery in Dirty Harry (though there are others, from all over, from just about every genre of violence (and frankly, the John Wick movies are largely built around this conceit, every gunplay scene can be framed as "holy shit Keanu is just so good at reloading"))

"I know what you're thinking, did he fire six shots or only five? To tell you the truth, in the excitement, I kinda lost track myself. But being as this... ...would blow your head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well do ya, punk?"

The tension here is palpable, and it hinges on one very simple fact, one which the audience might know in theory, assuming we have perfect omniscient knowledge of the scene and can track every gunshot: is there a bullet in the gun, or is there not, and do you want to risk it?

This moment can exist in tabletop games, which is pretty cool. Frequently it actually comes down to "do I hit with the attack" because a lot of games and even more playgroups don't bother with tracking ammunition (which is fine, I'm not here to rag on that), but you can actually arrive at the "do I feel lucky? Well do ya" moment itself, or any of its variants, from two directions. Does the drama inform the gun, or does the gun inform the drama?

When the drama informs the gun, this happens because someone at the table has decided that this is a dramatic moment to leave up to (some degree of) chance. Common examples are the gun-holder's player asking for a dramatic moment, or the GM-role player offering a dramatic bargain ("if there IS a bullet left in the gun, and you pull the trigger, then... but if there isn't... but the gamble is in two stages...") and playing out the scene based on the invoked unknown - it doesn't matter whether or not there were bullets in the gun prior to the drama being invoked, but now it's a big unknown, it's the second stage of the gamble (the first stage being "will the gunner pull the trigger"). And there are many different systematic ways to represent and influence this, from a simple coin-flip/die roll, to systems which frame it as a specific Move, sometimes tied to a certain Playbook or archetype, to systems which allow modifiers like "my guy has Always Prepared which adds +1 to the roll" or "I took the One Bullet Left schtick which explicitly states I always have One Bullet Left once per dramatic scene when otherwise I would be empty"

And these are all fine and good. And arguably, this is the easier way to handle it. And a case could be made that from a dramatic standpoint, this is actually better, it leaves the tension unresolved because the state is unknown and because the scene is invoked by the players, instead of arising out of nowhere.

But the alternative is the gun informs the drama. In this model, Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum holds 6 rounds. The player knew how many rounds were in the gun at the start of the sequence, and marked off a round each time they fired. The question is already answered, the drama is now shifted to the first part of the gamble: is the punk in question going to back down, or does the trigger get pulled, does the bluff get called? Because the game already knows what happens.

There are modifiers, of course! It's too much work for a game to literally track every variable at all times, so it's entirely possible that the player picked up a gun that hadn't been interacted with in the scene and so the GM has to quickly collapse the waveform, even if the player doesn't know how many bullets are in the gun. I'm not stating that "the GM knows how many bullets are in every gun at all times". But in the idealized example, we and the game know how many shots are left. And that's a very different kind of dramatic tension than invoking it the other way around.

And you just don't get that with a loose, floaty, "IDK it's a handgun, it does 1d6 damage, tracking ammo is boring so we just assume you have it unless it's dramatic".

For complete transparency, I really like both directions here, I think they're both really neat. This is not a statement of superiority. And it's also rare to find a game that operates at either extreme (though it's more likely to find games hanging out at the drama-informs-gun side for a bunch of reasons). Most games blend elements together. I've even listed some of those blends above.

But you can't get the hard-stop, resource-driven drama without at least some kind of equipment list, and the more lovingly detailed the NERPS, the higher the chances it'll click like that.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just way off base and gratuitous gear lists are a relic of a crummy, crusty generation and it's all Character Aspect Tags and Dramatic Timing that's important now.


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in reply to @amaranth-witch's post:

so i'm not exactly a game design wizard, i don't necessarily have exactly the words for why i like what i like and why it works. but i am also often in Camp "I Love Gear Lists." there's something charming about digging through an index of minute variations and flavors of weapons and armor and such and coming out with some buried treasure that's perfect for your character. why have two identical sidearms manufactured by two different corporations? well, because this corporation builds them with an eye for ergonomics and a easy shooting experience, but this one builds for rugged reliability above all else. and since my character is, let's say, a dusty desert outrider who needs a trusty backup weapon that won't jam in all the sand and grit, she's gonna have a pretty strong preference. now, can the gm just take a single standard sidearm stat block and just make up their own half a dozen corporations that make the gun ever so slightly differently? sure. but they can also do that with the Mega Gear List as guidance and inspiration. the gear list is NERPS and NERPS is storytelling and frankly, i enjoy a game that starts telling its story even before you start playing. as a player, i find that stuff like the gear list helps me feel like i'm building a character that's part of a world and not just a stat stick with a backstory. i hope that makes sense

I don't know whether I understand every single nuance to your experience (because that's part of what makes it uniquely yours) but yeah it makes complete and intuitive sense to me. It's like... ok this is going to sound like a tangent but it's not, go with me on this journey

OK so one of the strong resonant taglines from the Apocalypse World game lineage is "Play To Find Out", right? Except that's never really done it for me, because the way it's always been presented to me is "nothing is there until you make it be there, play to find out, isn't this exciting" and my brain is all
"but how can I find out if there's nothing TO find out, how can something matter if it doesn't matter, how can I play if there's nothing to play with"

Which isn't a flaw with PbtA, it's a sort of de-sync between the way I normally/easily function and the things PbtA asks of its players, right? But it illustrates the "tangible-world" aspect. I like to build things in the sandbox, I like to invent things for the sandbox, I like to add things to the sandbox from outside, I like to push the boundaries of the sandbox

But I like the sandbox to be there for me

If we take the assumption that every part of the game is the best it could be when the game was made where and by whom it was made, then they had something to say with the gear lists. And then once it's free if them and in our hands, if we find meaning in them (and I, too, enjoy doing this), then there it is where we find/put it.

There are 4 kinds of story in ttrpg design: lore, anti-lore, backstory, and frontstory (aka playing the thing). Lore is given to the game as part of the printing; anti-lore is what the GM typically does, reacting with the lore to create things that make the world interactive with the players' interests. Gear lists are the kind of thing that lets back and frontstory, the things players typically bring to the game and produce in it, interface directly with the lore and indicate interests for the anti-lore direction. They're honestly great.

And then the guns can have more personality! Harry's gun is ridiculous. It's a handcannon. It's an utterly preposterous thing for a cop to be swinging around. What cop wants to be blowing people's heads clean off? Harry. He's a loose cannon. He is judge, jury, and executioner. Or at least, that's the image he wants to give off. He gives that speech at the beginning of the movie to a 2 bit no-gooder, who really hasn't deserved this shit. Said no-gooder quickly realizes he's in over his head and surrenders. You get the sense that Harry does this semi-regularly. It's a practiced speech, delivered with the maximum amount of cool he can muster. To send kids home who didn't really know what they were getting into. But when he does it to Scorpio? He's barely holding onto his cool. He's not bluffing anymore, if he ever was. He just feels like he owes Scorpio one more chance to repent and take the easy way out. He spits the ending at him. Prove to me you're who I think you are. You are being judged.

Harry's speech wouldn't work with just any weapon! It's not just that it has six bullets that's relevant, it's the fact that it's the highest damage weapon in the list (most powerful handgun in the world), it's the fact that it's traded all accuracy for handling and pure damage, but what does that matter when you're inches away? It's point blank annihilation. The crunch! You can hear it!

And it also reminds me of Borderlands, which has so much personality in the gun manufacturers. Complete with advertisements! "If it took more than one shot, it wasn't a Jakobs." That's what Harry's expy would wield. Just look for the best Jakobs on the list.

Anyway: I don't think I'd want the lists to be mandatory. But most GMs know when to ignore lists lol so I'd hardly fault a resource for including one.

Absolutely yes, agreed across the board and like. Even the most list-heavy games have generics! Shadowrun was explicit with "the Ares Predator set the standard for this class of gun, use it as the generic, it's even costed lower than it "should be" to represent that" and they did that for just about every category to make it easy to ignore or expand the list as needed!

i do think one important thing that can get glossed over here is that there is a cost to the gear lists, in terms of possibility space and player expression. what i mean is: when a game has mechanics that indirectly decide how good a character is at doing something, and a player wants their character to be good at that thing, they are forced to engage in mechanical mastery to reach the character they want to play. and either gear lists are very meticulously balanced, in which case effort was taken away from designing or testing other game mechanics, or they aren't, in which case a player with mastery is going to make a few selections only and everyone's going to start looking very same-y.

so, Shadowrun is a good example of where the list isn't meticulously balanced. the Ares Predator is best-in-class as far as gun-per-weight goes. the Alpha tends to be the same in the rifles category, in the editions it exists in. there's some inherent flavor to that being the case, of course, but at the same time, if you survey ten optimized street sams, at least half of 'em are gonna be using the exact same guns, and at some point you have to ask why that isn't just a generic heavy pistol/rifle. Lancer is an example of where it is - the mech gearing is so pitch-perfectly balanced that it's a major part of player expression, but the cost of that is that the narrative modules, including the expanded ones, are just kinda tolerable at best.

i agree that this is a tradeoff though! the list is a type of flavor unto itself, and it's a type of flavor that, even done poorly, gives you some room to think about how your character fits into the existing world. i've come to strongly prefer the genericized stuff, but it's definitely a preference thing - i had a player in a Shadowrun forged-in-the-dark hack who told me they didn't feel like they were rooted in the lore, but their playbook had an explicit instruction to name the fancy guns it came with, and they hadn't done that, because they just couldn't see a way to make it fit the world to their satisfaction; they wanted a list to spur their imagination. but it's important to note that there is a cost, i think.

the other thing is that the optimization-of-play issue has been persistent in the big names for so long (see: linear fighter, quadratic wizard) that there's a swathe of players who don't (and sometimes refuse to) understand that tradeoff is a tradeoff, not a fact of life. so you get a lot of people (like me!) who can get preachy about it. i suspect i'm not saying anything you don't already know, though, lol

That makes some sense to me! When I was running Shadowrun-via-Fragged-Empire-Homebrew years ago I loved reading through the gun descriptions.

The thing is that I loved the descriptions, though. Not really the mechanics, because there's like one good one and 8 trash ones and the one you give to NPCs because it has more ammo. I think I'd do just as well with a d6 list of descriptions of "what kind of heavy pistol are we looking at here, is this a revolver or more of a 1911 kind of situation".

Ooh! Or you could even do like two lists, one is "normal ones regular joes would have" and the other is "exceptional ones that have +1 ammo, or -1 ammo but they're smaller, or etc etc etc"

I think I mostly just don't like the big tables with like 10 columns across, honestly.

With Gun Invoking Drama, the player and other people would know how many bullets are left right? You can't quite reach the "I lost count" portion because usually there's something keeping track, whether it be a heads up display in a video game or, if the players know ammo will be tracked, their own tracking, does that undercut the uncertainty of a scene like that?

That’s a really interesting question because the answer is “well, it depends”!

Like in the movie example, the audience could theoretically count the shots (same as in Clue or other movies that use similar situations) and have an answer, but there’s also the possibility that the audience doesn’t have accurate information… but presuming the audience does have the info, the scene isn’t deflated just because we know/don’t know whether there’s a bullet left, the tension is just reframed by the fictional-objective truth. Sort of like a sliding scale between “nobody knows” on one end and “everybody knows” on the other, with “the gun knows” and “the audience knows” being the spots we end up at?

We don’t actually know whether the character Harry lost track, or said he lost track to build threat. We don’t know if the punk was counting (he probably wasn’t, but we don’t know). But the gun knows.

It’s an imperfect analogy because of all kinds of reasons, I’m afraid, but the idea is that more concrete elements in play shift the focus of the drama and the manner that it gets invoked, more than anything. Instead of a big uncertain “well Harry is telling the truth and nobody knows” (not EVEN the gun in some examples) it becomes “SOMEONE knows” and goes from there.

because of really intense brain fog i usually cant engage anymore in the kind of crunchy games that have really intricate gear lists, and i didnt really particularly enjoy them when i did. however i do as an artist love them and the stories they tell about the world and the things they attempt to explain. even in very much less crunchy games i love an extensively detailed list.

One of the things that made The Adventure Zone podcast really sing in its first season was Justin's creative use of magical spells. And I just don't think it would have worked as well if there was a generic "Use Magic" skill instead. Part of the fun is going down this long catalog of options and picking the one that seems coolest.