thefifthnote

Trying out different platforms atm

  • They/them

21+ | PH
Weeb, book enthusiast, amateur artist. Dabbles in a lot of things.


NireBryce
@NireBryce

(or you have problems with 'social norms' which is the other excuse I've seen.)

I though this was obvious but like, yr neurodivergence isn't an excuse for doubling down on something once someone points out it's kinda racist (or any of your other bigotries). that's a thing you should have been working on for decades -- deferred maintenance on your part.

sure, while you're getting there you might fuck up from time to time, but that's for you to own, not for you to throw up your hands and go 'oh this was inevitable woe is all'.

same with RSD -- it is not other people's problem that you had a reaction that made you push into them, it's a thing you have to actually work on instead of shrugging your arms and saying it's inevitable. People will get that you're trying to change and learn, but I've seen RSD in general, across multiple platforms, used as excuses for like, tearing into people for pointing out yr racist and that's like... you're still being racist, and you're still being an asshole at best even if there might, somehow, be nuance that's relevant.

the thing about actions and words is you have to actually do both of them but a whole lot of people have this wild-ass learned helplessness that's like, basically a billboard saying fixing the bigotries and ignorance you hold is a lower priority than like, hanging out with friends. A priority that has been held low for over a decade at this point.

apologize and actually change when people point things out instead of escalating out of defensiveness-adrenaline-shame-whatever that white people who haven't worked on it get when people point out something. It's easier for everyone, and also like... don't tell me you don't have the skills or knowledge to figure this out, I've seen people who otherwise devour game wikis or who can recite rocketry wikipedia from memory whine about how hard it is to learn and change.

and while we're at it, touch less grass. It's clearly not helping.

If you think this post is about you: it totally is.


numberonebug
@numberonebug

The framing I've heard for this kind of idea is basically "this isn't your fault but it is your responsibility"


pieartsy
@pieartsy

An essay I wrote in 2020

A sincere guide by me, marginalized neurodivergent person.

Oh no! You were trying to ask a genuine question of someone, or sincerely compliment them, or ask for clarification on something confusing, or simply making a statement, and they told you that you were being bigoted!

They may be wondering how you missed such an obvious fact, why you ignored such blatant signs that it was shitty to say, why you thought it was ok to say such a thing, or what the heck is wrong with you. Or maybe you're worried that they're thinking that.

But you missed the obvious fact because you don't pick up on things as fast as others do, or have a poor memory! Or you weren't ignoring signs, you just have trouble reading tone over text, or body language! Or you didn't actually think it was ok, but your mouth moved faster than your brain because of your poor impulse control, or activated state, or what have you! There's nothing wrong with you because of that, you're just neurodivergent!

What do you do? Oftentimes scripts for these situations are genuinely hard, and being told the same generic advice as neurotypical people can have you feeling lost or ignored.

Here's my take:

DO:

  • Apologize. You may not think you did anything wrong, or that they misunderstood your intent, but impact means more than intent in cases where people say they're hurt. Especially if you have difficulties in regards to perception, such as reading tone of voice or facial expressions, your perception of events is likely very different to theirs, and as they're the hurt party, their perception should be respected.

  • Thank them for telling you that you were being bigoted. It definitely hurts to be called out, especially if you had no idea anything was wrong until they said something. But they took the time, and respected you enough, to correct you on your behavior. Take it as a learning experience - if this is something you've been struggling with, their comment means you'll be able to do better in the future.

  • Ask them how you can set things right with them, if at all. Sometimes they might be so hurt that they don't have an answer for you ( for example, "I don't know if there's anything"), or their answer is something like, "I don't want to interact with you anymore". Respect that! In general, try to do what they asked. If they say "I don't know", give them some space from you for a while.

  • Self-reflect after the interaction is over. What can you learn from this experience that will lead you to be a better ally and better at interacting with other people?
    You can take notes from the content of the interaction, such as "they told me in words that asking a fat person whether they're pregnant is bad, now I know not to say that". As well, you can take notes from the interaction itself, such as "their eyebrows furrowed and their lips got tight after I asked whether they were pregnant, now I know what facial cues occur when I say something fatphobic to them, and can apologize before they have to correct me next time".

DON'T:

  • Try to justify your mistake by explaining you're neurodivergent, and/or what the neurodivergency is. Even if you didn't intend it this way, this makes it sound like you're using your neurodivergency as an excuse for what you did. It also throws people with the same neurodivergency under the bus, by implying that people with your neurodivergency are either naturally bigoted, or are excused from bigotry because "they can't help it".
    As well, it assumes that the person you're talking to doesn't understand or know the neurodivergency you're talking about. That person might have friends with the same neurodivergency, or even have the same neurodivergency themself. An explanation from you like "well, ADHD causes impulsive speech, which is why my sentence wasn't as thought through as you'd like" to another ADHD person can come across as exceedingly patronizing.
    Remember that neurodivergent marginalized people, especially PoC, often don't get the luxury of sympathy for our mistakes. To ask for sympathy due to your neurodivergency, and receive such sympathy from others, is a privilege. Acknowledge your privilege.

  • Jump to thinking of them as ableist, or as being bigoted toward you, especially if they didn't know that you had a neurodivergency. If someone calls you racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, etc, that doesn’t inherently make them ableist because you happen to have a neurodivergency. If you assume that they're upset at you because you're neurodivergent, rather than because you made a mistake, you're not self-examining to see whether what they're saying holds weight. Rather, you're dismissing their concerns as just them being bigoted themself, and centering yourself as the person who's truly been hurt.
    NOTE: This bit of advice assumes that the person calling you out was not, for example, calling you ableist slurs.

  • Beat yourself up about how terrible, messed up, or broken you are. Definitely don't do this in front of the person - it reads as guilt tripping them into feeling sorry for you because of your neurodivergency. Even if you feel embarrassed and stupid that your neurodivergency contributed to the bigoted action, tearing yourself down is harmful. It again centers you as the hurt person who deserves comforting, and can often lead to fixating on your neurodivergency as the cause of any bigotry.

Remember that no neurodivergency causes people to be bigoted. Neurodivergency is an explanation of behavior, never an excuse.


You must log in to comment.

in reply to @NireBryce's post:

i'm thinking about the summer of 2020 when a prominent leftist furry twitterer sicced their following on an indigenous artist because the indigenous artist was like "it is not okay to describe an ad for converse shoes that had furries in it as cultural appropriaton as someone who has gone througn life affected by it for real" and they just would not back down and eventually blamed autism

they set this person's career back and lost them a few opportunities over it, like they were going to be in a furry media thing (a documentary i think?)

it drove moo mad because i tried to say some of this stuff to them as an autism when they blamed their behavior on it, after the damage was done and they were on damage control

there was a weird negative overreaction when bland, benign Codes of Conduct became a common practice for contributing to software projects, i half suspected at the time it was people not wanting to no longer be able to say they didn't know what the expected social norms were

in reply to @numberonebug's post:

I know you don't mean it full-throatedly, but the fault is on them when it gets this far, but even before that. There's so many counterexamples of people with every possible combination of ND stuff and background having worked on it.

it's the whole "your rights end at your fist before it hits my face" thing. The first time is like, sure, they might not have known. the nth time, in their 20s?

if they're lashing out for people calling them racist for being racist, and then doubling down when people point it out, that's on them. It's deferred maintenance with 'hanging out with friends' and 'playing video games' instead of realizing that like, even with things that may have them have stronger reactions or misread a sitch, they were racist and do need to work on it, instead of like. tearing into people.

there's this weird thing I see that's the opposite though, that the OP is partially about, where some ND people on my timelines are, not infrequently, basically acting as if they can't have free will because of their neurodivergence, just, in more words.

I hear that, thank you. That was just a pithy phase that was invaluable at helping me to stop using my mental illness as a hall pass for harmful behavior so I thought it might be a helpful addition.

I am confused because we are agreeing with one another, I am saying that if people want to blame harmful behavior on illness or neurotype then that does not absolve them of guilt but rather indicates a responsibility they have to put the work into mitigating those issues or symptoms. Someone can't just say "well I have bipolar disorder so I act impulsively" and call it a day. It's on them to do the work. That seems to be what your message is too.

"this isn't your fault but it is your responsibility" 100%. you don't control your emotions, but you can choose the way you interact with the people around you. i (turing) Literally have npd, and that can make accepting criticism Legitimately difficult. but it's something i have to at least Outwardly be able to do so that people feel comfortable discussing their boundaries with me. i can untangle my internal reaction in private

yeah, I guess what I meant with my original critique in this post's comments is that a lot of people seem to parse "not your fault but your responsibility" as:

(the general "you", I'm not talking about you here to be clear)

"[your racist actions caused by not working on this, that happened partially because of your ND] aren't your fault"

instead of "you doing this actually is on you because of the deferred maintenance, and the reactivity is something you need to account for in yourself when dealing with others, but the base ND part isn't your fault"

with "this" being the defensive escallations etc described above that cause people to memory hole it instead of working on it.

in reply to @pieartsy's post:

I agree with the sentiment of this comment.

Except for this bit here.

you have demonstrated that you have failed as a person and need to spend the rest of your life atoning for that.

This isn't a very helpful mindset for anyone to be in. It both makes people afraid to make a single mistake about anything ever, and also perpetuates the unhealthy culture of zero-tolerance/one strike cancellation. We want people to be able grow and learn from their mistakes.

I don't remember the first paragraph, but the second one (that I quoted part of) was something like "don't forgive yourself until the community deems you forgivable. You have to atone for being a failure of a person for the rest of your life"