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Ada/Lykie - 30 - 18+ - HRT since 22/02/2023 - transbian, Queer, painting restorer - very ace - I wolf out sometimes - θ∆


JuniperTheory
@JuniperTheory

is claim a character is one of the greatest songwriters/poets/artists/etc of all time, or claim some work of art is the most legendary thing to ever be made, found the greatest work of art ever, and then they post that poem or song or speech or painting or whatever and it's

middling at best, often just flat out bad

it's just the worst feeling. it makes the entire story feel fake, as if everyone in it can only aspire to this level of bad taste lol

so what are some examples where you think the author actually DID create art that holds up to it's legendary description? it actually IS as good as the story claims, this play DOES sound compelling enough to drive humanity insane, this painting COULD sell for 200 billion dollars, this poem COULD cause an entire alien race to decide on love instead of war or whatever the story wants?


docmatador
@docmatador
This post has content warnings for: media club plus mafia community spoilers (and hxh).

kirbymacintosh
@kirbymacintosh

This is kind of a weird example, but I think "Boy With Apple" in The Grand Budapest Hotel and Moses Rosenthaler's paintings in The French Dispatch get away with this even though the paintings in question aren't the greatest works of art in the world. I think it works for a couple reasons. Firstly, they're kind of played for laughs. I remember reading an interview with the painter who designed "Boy With Apple" saying he intentionally made it a little goofy-looking, and there's that one line Gustave says about how everything else the painter created was junk. Meanwhile in The French Dispatch you have that first scene where Rosenthaler is intently studying his model while he paints, making very deliberate strokes on the canvas as he studies her body, only for it to be revealed at the end that it's been an abstract, Jackson Pollock-y painting this whole time. Secondly, the worlds in those movies are so well realized and the characters so well thought-out that it's easy to believe these people would like these paintings, even if you yourself do not. I believe wholeheartedly that these artworks could be important pieces of art history in the worlds of their respective films. Even in our world, I could definitely see rich people like Dmitri of the Desgoffe-und-Taxis family or Cadazio the art dealer1 making a huge fuss over "Boy With Apple" or "Simone, Cell Block J," even though I myself would not. I think the lesson here is that if your story centers around a work of art that everyone likes, not only do you need to make the artwork pretty good, but you also need to make sure your characters are very obviously the kinds of people who would go nuts for stuff like that.


  1. Both Adrien Brody characters, funnily enough.


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in reply to @JuniperTheory's post:

I don't know if you can do that without it feeling fake. If you used say, the Great Wave or Starry Night or some other art of that magnitude and fame, wouldn't a viewer of our world expect something "more" than that, given the hype around it?

Feels like the best play would be to not show anything at all rather than have a non-expert in a field try to create it.

This is all to say: I got nothin'.

I mentioned the Hitchhiker's Guide doing this with Vogon Poetry in another comment but actually it just occurred to me that this is sort of a repeated trope in the books, where the author cleverly gets around the problem by saying "well, maybe to humans it's not as exciting?" see also "most tasteful use of the word 'Belgium' in a stage play" which turns out to be some sort of alien naughty word, and similarly for "a good cup of tea" which is such a bizarre concept to aliens that Arthur Dent, boring british white man, nearly crashes an advanced artificial intelligence by trying to teach it the recipe.

Nabokov wrote a 1000 line poem for Pale Fire which is at the very least an incredible technical accomplishment and also gave a number of diegetic reasons why people would be clamoring for literary analysis of it regardless of its quality (which I personally think is still pretty damn good).

As already mentioned Pynchon includes excerpts from a fictional revenge play in The Crying of Lot 49 which are extremely weird and fun and also the main character might experiencing paranoid delusions already which makes her sudden obsession with the play make sense in multiple readings.

Children of Paradise is a film that partially revolves around the incredible abilities of the mime Baptiste Deburau and while I have very little reference for how good he is it definitely seems convincing that he's one of the best in the world. The film does a really good job cutting between background shots that reveal parts of the illusion and the audience point of view.

House of Leaves is a clusterfuck of nested art pieces but one reoccurring plot point is how good Navidson is at photography and film. Since the book doesn't actually show any of this but only describes the technical competence in academic terms it means that the reader is welcome to imagine Navidson as charitably or uncharitably as they wish.

Probably the hardest I've seen a movie cheat when trying to pull off a version of this maneuver is in casting Joshua Bell as the violinist who is actually performing the various solos in The Red Violin. Composer John Corigliano's score is certainly effective but it doesn't need to eclipse all other compositions for the film to work. Indeed, as the metronome sequence in the film demonstrates, you can wring a suprahuman performance out of a mere musical exercise, and film has a lot of tricks it can (and does) use to blur the line between composition and performance.

On a goofier note, I would also credit the Diva Dance from The Fifth Element as a high point in "film pays off promise of superlative artist." True, it's as flamboyantly silly as everything else in the film, and 'twas not her music that soothed the savage beasts, but if you've bought into the film up to that point, you're going to feel the same as those in the opera house when the song concludes. But here again, the film can blur the line between performance and composition to pull this off, and I would wager that many fans of that film don't realize, even today, that Lucia di Lammermoor is a pre-existing opera.

As an aside, I feel like Adaptation pretty brilliantly inverts this with its completely bonkers third-act pivot. Sometimes, the only winning move is to do your worst. :eggbug-devious:

Crossroads does a similar thing by having Steve Vai as the devil-boosted villain and Ry Cooder playing Ralph Macchio's parts. Like, yeah, they're gonna shred because they're some of the best in the world IRL lol

Within the fiction of House of Leaves, there is a book, House of Leaves, that is so terrifying and disorienting as to drive people to madness.

Within the fiction of House of Leaves, the fictional House of Leaves is also the real book House of Leaves that the reader is actually reading.

The real book House of Leaves was so terrifying and disorienting as to make me temporarily paranoid and make me feel motion sick while standing still.

in reply to @spineflu's post:

HEY! I like.... some.... of Dylan songs.
PS: The song "Death is Not the End" might be one of the most twee thing I ever heard. It's not the lyric I'm opposed to, I think it's interesting, but like, it sound like a song made for a children's album. The Nick Cave cover is better.